Open Thread – War on the Moon
Those are the same stars, and that is the same moon, that look down upon your brothers and sisters, and which they see as they look up to them, though they are ever so far away from us, and each other. ~Sojourner Truth
Is it just me? When I heard that NASA had crashed a rocket into the moon so hard that it buried itself 12 feet under the lunar surface, I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it one little bit.
I should say before I go any further that I appreciate the purpose of the mission. The rocket is dislodging the sediment at the bottom of a lunar crater to see if it can find frozen water. I appreciate that in two ways. First, I enjoy the quest for knowledge for its own sake. I think it’s important for the human species to have great challenges that elevate our imaginations and stretch our thinking. It’s good for us. Second, at the rate we’re going with the water on this planet, it’s probably in our best interest to know if we have a backup supply. Our great great grandchildren may be residing in some lunar condominium sucking drinking water up from the bottom of dark craters whose lack of sunlight ensured the preservation of pure, ancient water ice. It isn’t pretty, but it’s better than nothing.
On top of that, I’m pretty much a science geek. The first occupation I can ever remember wanting to have was that of a physical analytical biochemist. How can one be expected to limit oneself to only one single branch of chemistry? I loved thinking about the bigger questions of what stuff is, how it fits together and what it means for life on the planet.
I got a Barbie camper under the tree one Christmas. I cried. I just knew that Santa had gotten that list mixed up. The next year, he redeemed himself when I got a rock hammer and a chemistry set.
And space? LOVE it! I’m a Hubble photo addict, I own a big fat telescope, and I even have a rather extensive collection of meteorites, which I can talk about at great length until even the most avid rock hound glazes over and looks for the quickest escape route.
Hopefully, I have now convinced you of my geek cred.
And after all that, I still really do not like the rocket in the moon. Couldn’t we have sent it to Mars or somewhere that wasn’t OURS? And did NASA ask permission before they blasted vast chunks of the moon into space? Is the moon simply there so that the United States can take shots at it, like Napoleon’s army did with the Sphinx? What about the Italians? The French? The Russians? What about the people in Zimbabwe? It’s their moon too, isn’t it? They lie with their backs to the Earth and look at it. One of the few things that unites humanity in a common bond is our love of the moon. Nobody doesn’t love the moon.
The moon has been a sacred object; mythical, spiritual, a thing of radiant beauty. When we stepped on it, we stepped lightly. OK, we had no choice because of the lack of gravity, but still. I like to think we would have stepped lightly anyway, on principle. Lovers watch it dance on the water, moths try to reach it, children watch it shine through bedroom curtains, wolves howl at it, even oceans are bent by its will as tides go in and out as they have for millenia. And now we’ve just gone and launched a giant metal object at it, and blown off chunks of it into space.
I may know part of my problem. I remember the first time I saw the film ”Le Voyage Dans la Lune.” Filmed in 1902, it was the first film of the science fiction genre, and its novelty and innovation aside, it freaked me out. In the film, a group of scientists launched a rocket at the moon with horrifying results.
Well, it was horrifying to a seven year old. So maybe it’s my own fault for anthropomorphizing the moon. In my defense, I wouldn’t be the first. SOMEbody came up with the “Man in the Moon” concept, and we see images of moons with faces all the time. So it feels like an assault, a punch in the kisser, a knuckle sandwich for the Man in the Moon from Uncle Sam.
Perhaps when this is all over, we will have convinced the moon to give up some of its secrets by force. Perhaps in a couple hundred years our species will be finding precious clean water on another celestial body, and sucking it up with a giant soda straw from our new lunar homes, long after we should have become extinct. I’m sure there was a bunch of Woo-Hooing going on at NASA. After all, there is a brand new crater on the moon tonight. And I also realize that blasting all that material off the surface of the moon may result in an unanticipated bonus. If those chunks find their way to Earth, we get lunar meteorites, a real collector’s item and worth quite a bit of money for the person who finds them.
But I still don’t have to like it.
The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago… had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands. – Henry Ellis
I´m with you on this 100%.
Me too. I felt a hurt that was surprising to feel. Couldn’t someone like the guy in the Bruce Willis movie go up there to drill to see if there is water down below? For Pete’s sake, why bomb our beloved moon?
Well, one thing to remember is that we have been crashing things into the moon for 50 years now.
And as things go, the LCROSS was relatively small, only around 4,000 pounds. Recently the Lunar Reconnisance Orbiter located the wreckage of the Apollo 14 booster, which weighed in at over 30,000 pounds when it crashed in 1971. Made a really neat crater too, nice rays.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Ditto – I know that more exploration is needed – eventually. It just seems right now that the money could have been diverted to some other things, but……… I suppose the funds expended kept some people in their jobs, all the way down the chain.
I remember a wonderful wooded area with smooth slate cliffs that we could slide down with a piece of burlap, a shallow pond, it was the “secret garden” for us young girls back in the 50s. We could go there to dream and pretend (Dale Evans was our heroine back then). Some years later when I was back in VT for a visit, my sanctuary was gone and there were homes built on the spot. It was a devastating blow, a piece of my childhood gone. I feel the same way today about our moon. One day in the not too distant future, it will be unrecognizable as we know it now.
AKM – Your Henry Ellis quote is so appropriate for both the moon and my little hide-away.
Happy weekend to all!
I am a bit concerned that a few years down the road someone from NASA says,”Whoopsie, we made a mistake when we fired those things at the moon. Seems we knocked it a bit out of whack and now its orbit has been compromised.” Goodnight Moon.
i was a little scared as well.
i was worried for women. they say our bodies are connected to the moon.
what if this throws us all out of whack??
it could be time for women to take over the earth…yeahhh
watch out men
I watched it live on NASA teevee – there wasn’t a lot of woohooing, in general it was pretty low key.
It was a bit of a non-event to be honest.. as far as I know no plume arrived and nothing could be seen when the rocket crashed.
I don’t like it one bit either and thank you for saying so.
When my mother left left her wife-beater, she didn’t want her adoptive father’s name and she didn’t want the wife-beater’s name. She knew she and her real birth mother saw the same moon so she picked a last name that means “Moon”.
When I left my wife-beater, I didn’t want his name, and I didn’t want my abusive father’s name, so I took my mother’s last name.
I too was deeply offended at what was done to the moon.
I always felt that what my mom did in linking her mother and herself to the moon was really romantic in a way. To me it just said something beautiful about my mother.
“A smack in the Kisser”? No, I think they hit the Old man considerably lower.
I have to question your science credentials on the water bit. The test was to see if there was water that might support a space colony–it has nothing to do with a backup supply for earth. Walk west until you hit the Pacific ocean–there’s no shortage of water on earth. The energy required to desalinate ocean water is “a drop in the bucket” compared to bringing water from the moon to earth.
It was meant to be whimsical and amusing.
AKM
Couldn’t agree more. I woke up early to focus on the moon and send apologies. The “man in the moon” image that you included was the one I chose for my computer screen background yesterday.
Even my geek side could not accept what we did yesterday. If Iran had decided the moon needed to be bombed for water exploration, we’d have had a stroke. Why do we get to make such choices? Why do we get to use “In The Name Of Science!” at a reason to let scientists do any number of things that most folks would disagree with?
And, in my mind, $79 million would’ve been much better spent bringing earth water to earth humans who are facing disaster because of a lack of clean water.
Does anyone know the children’s story, “Wump World” ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wump_World
My kids are adults now but we still refer to this book and the story of how humans just plow through resources with little regard to the bigger picture. If we’ve gotten to a point where we’re beginning to hang hopes on a moon based “Plan B” for future water then we should be hearing a really loud wake up call. Maybe we need to send a copy of Wump World to our reps!
I thought it was just me…
Speaking of “over the moon” – how do you like this website? Really good snark. Officious? godly? Made my day! I suppose it’s been out there awhile, but I just found it.
http://www.georgewbush.org
Funny how the mind works.
I was watching right up to the point of impact, and then, without any hesitation, I switched it off.
I just could not watch, as if it was like someone inflicting great harm on a loved one.
Let’s not forget that the moon has effects on women and emotions. I don’t need any help with messing all that up, thankyouverymuch!
I don’t like this one bit. Do they really know the effects this might have on the orbit and all? What would we do if the moon wasn’t perfectly aligned with earth anymore? It’s scary to be messing with the cosmos, methinks. We’ve done enough damage on this planet, so we have to go and mess around with with our moon?
and then there’s this…
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/06oct_maya.htm?list775407
My husband and I sat in horror yesterday morning when NASA bombed the Moon. We couldnt believe it! I’m still in shock – the audacity by the United States to do this to a planet our very own Earth depends on to survive. What, have we gone “too far” in ruining our planet, so much so it cant it fixed…so now we look to the moon to ruin? WTF!!?
Thanks but no thanks to Sarah Palin
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2009/10/republican_bob_mcdonnell_repea.html
Bob McDonnell doesn’t want to be seen with Palin.
totally in agreement here with everything said, AKM; I too was a bit concerned, and had exactly same sentiments about, well, we weren’t asked permission – it’s our moon too.
I know we rely and have faith in science, but they have been known to make mistakes, and unfortunately mishaps like the Challenger shuttle that disintegrated. The moon was placed there for a very good reason, there’s only one. Damaging even the slightest parts of an irreplaceable moon that keeps the balance of gravitation between the sun and earth (I think) – only 1 cup of coffee here)….would be a risk I wouldn’t take.
Too bad they couldn’t have first landed, taken samples, a more delicate way – hope those martians didn’t think we are aggressive.
I thought about it too that the U.S. didn’t check it out, as far as we know, with the rest of the world. We’ve all got a stake in this. I like Mr. Moon’s face the way it is.
I asked myself all the same questions AKM. I don’t begrudge science it’s due, but the moon?? Bomb the moon?? It does belong to every human in every land, and it felt like…and invasion of privacy of sorts. Like Ripley..I also worry about what the possibilities are, that something could have gone wrong. Mistakes are made all the time.
You are the first person to put voice to this in my sphere AKM. Now I don’t feel quite so loony for being upset.
Penny, that was interesting about the Mayans. Sounds unfortunately too close to what has happened to the Los Padres and Angeles National Forests in CA. For years, I have thought the global warming has accelerated due to the deforestation of the Brazilian/South American rain forests. I remember hearing the rain forests referred to as the lungs of the planet, but I have no proof that this was the tipping point, just intuition.
I meant the recent fires in the CA forests. Haven’t had coffee yet.
Well..to me..the moon..a name given by..earthlings..has been a part of the cosmos..that never ending flux of materials..as they form, cycle and recycle..since before any rose from the pond muck on this earth..also a name..given..by humankind. It was..and is..’all one’..and we but a flicker of a moment..in time..vast, endless time. I feel no ownership as to the moon..but I feel a kinship..with all that is here, there..and beyond My knowing. Since I feel..’ant-like’..within the scheme of things..and as many of you..enjoy vastly..looking outward in joy..at that clock of clocks..unfolding ..out there..I also turn inward..to study the beings around me. Human, animal..the plants the airs and vapors.. and follow them with kinship..scent leads, hearing alerts..and beauty and damage..give pause. I hope for ..health..amongst all things..and know it will never..’Arrive’..and yet the honeing of our individual abilitys, passions..makes of us..a huge genetic-tissue-smudge..upon this earth..if we see our total human mass..rather than..the individual human body forms. Therefore..to cut my ‘word brick’ shorter..the heavens, as it were..have been ..peppering this place of earth..for ever, with cosmosian floatsome jetsome..and we..are simply…returning the favor. Have any of us ever..winged a pebble at a ..neighbors window?…
I didn’t like it either…I was afraid something awful would happen like UN-align the galaxy…something un-natural, terrifying.
Calling all Mudpups who like the style of Heart, Etheridge, Indigo Girls. If you have a few moments to listen to some music samples I’d like to get your feedback on the sound/feel of a band I’m working with :
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I worked with them for a number of years until I started getting swamped with my own projects. I’ve decided to work with them again for awhile as they’re working on their next phase. I give them a lot of credit for hanging in there all this time.
The core of Anatara is the combo of 2 women in their late 40s. They’ve been playing together for nearly 2 decades now. The age old story of artists that have it in their soul and cannot imagine not doing music. They’re inducted in to Western New York’s Music Hall of Fame, have opened for Pat Benetar, have played for the Clinton’s Christmas party at the White House and were always poised juuuust this side of making it.
If you like their sound and feel like offering a comment about harmonies, overall sound, etc, please drop me a line through their website which is linked on the left of the page under ” More Cool Artist Stuff” or you can drop a PM.
Thanks!!
I’m with NASA on this one, particularly since, as GreatGrey noted, the landing was small scale.
But for those who prefer first hand experiments on the Moon manned–or woman-ed–by humans, rather than long-distance “bombings” please contact your Congress-people about increasing the space exploration budget.
Need a fix o’ Palin snark? Check out The Faster Times:
http://thefastertimes.com/famehype/2009/10/09/sarah-palin-out-to-destroy-levi-johnston-in-her-new-book-going-rogue/
For some undoubtedly lame reason, I liked the revelation about Rush Limburger’s fave reading material.
mo @ 26
I’ll double up on that Palin snark
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/10/791852/-Palin-should-have-gotten-Nobel,-not-Obama!
I don’t know… a 12′ hole in a crater doesn’t seem enough to mis-align the composition of bodies in space. In fact, if we were going to spend the cash and bother at all, you would think they would make it much more significant.
That said, I agree with others. The moon is EVERYONE’s and a violent assault on it, such as firing a missile at it, doesn’t seem to be something we should engage in without world-wide support/permission/whatever.
And, worse… what comes next? How will we “top” that little escapade?
I already had my rant about this on the open thread.
So now for a little humor. This is a song Donavon did in 1973 from the Cosmic Wheels album, it goes like this.
I was impressed like everyone
when man began to fly
out of Earthly regions
to planets in the sky
with total media coverage
we watched the heroes land
as ceremoniously they disturbed the cosmic sand.
in awe with admiration we
listened to the talk, such pride felt they, such joy
to be upon the moon to walk.
my romantic visions shattered when it was explained to me, spacemen wear old diapers in which they sh!t & pee.
oh the intergalactive laxative
will get you from here to there
believe you & believe me! without a worry or care
if sh!tting is your problem when you’re out there in the stars
the intergalactive laxative
will get you from here to Mars
they don’t partake like you & I
of beefy burger mush
their food is specialy prepared
to dissolve into slush
absorbed by multi fibers
in the super diaper suit
otherwise the slush would trickle down inside the boot
chorus
you may well ask now what becomes
of liquid they consume
a pipe is led from penis head to
a unit in the room
the water is recirculated, filtered for re-use
in case some anti-gravity pee gets on the loose.
chorus
wherever man has conquered on the quest for frontiers
new, I’m glad he’s always had to do the no. 1 & 2
it makes it all so ordinary just like you & me
to know the greatest heroes
they had to sh!t & pee
chorus
This song also has a very catchy little tune. I used to listen to it every morning before I went to work.
Well, I looked forward to the impact event and am looking forward to the science results from it. It sounds like a good way to determine if there is water ice in the permanently shadowed craters at the Moon’s poles. Taking a wild guess as far as possible catastrophic results (as people here have mentioned) number one: look at all the craters up there from much much larger bodies hitting it and number two I think if I jumped off a desk in a skyscraper it would have as much chance of falling from my impact against its floor. Objections to the LCROSS mission amount to moral esthetics to me and I have give this column an eye roll.
Here’s a good site for information about the mission:
http://planetary.org/blog/
I had the same reaction when I first heard about this, but then I thought about it and realized that the moon gets hit by things certainly as large as what NASA just hit it with — all the time! That’s why it’s covered in craters!
The moon was in no way hurt by the activity.
Relax, kids!
Just another obscene invasive violation by our country who should know better…On the other hand, IF they HAD bases there, maybe we could convince the ones who mean the earth harm, to wind their ways to other planets and leave ours to those of us who love and appreciate it and want to address the problems here. BUH-BYE!
This is one of the best written articles about President Obama and the Nobel Peace Prize. Please give it your support. It’s very well written and compliments all of those who voted for Barack Obama, basically we share the prize with him.
Remember the encouraging responses our mudpups gave when they traveled to Europe after the election? Those countries where Americans had gained such a bad reputation and begun hating us. Now we are welcomed and embraced once again, in most of the world. Of course we may want to show we’re proud dems and not small minded, hate mongering repubs when traveling, lol.
And the repubs can ‘thank us’ for giving Americans a better reputation worldwide, that they get to enjoy when traveling. Cough it up Repubs.
The monumental ‘shift’ is what this Prize is all about.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-creamer/obamas-nobel-prize-is-rea_b_316375.html
The Nobel Committee gave the prize to Barack Obama because he gave the world hope that its most powerful, wealthy nation would once again provide humankind with inspiration and leadership that can be trusted and admired.
Since his election, President Obama has launched a worldwide campaign to eliminate all nuclear weapons – recognizing that controlling the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a practical impossibility unless we work to eliminate them from the globe. He has rededicated America to cope with the massive threat of climate change. He has reset our relationship with the Muslim world. He has rededicated America to the world’s international institutions. And, he has begun to use all of the tools available to our country – including diplomacy – to create a more just and peaceful planet.
Has anyone noticed on seepee sight the ad for legal fund for Sarah is missing? What is up with that, was it shut down by someone like FBI?
NASA’s bottom line for moon exploration and water – rocket fuel.
Basic information about the mission from NASA’s LCROSS website:
The Mission Objectives of the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) include confirming the presence or absence of water ice in a permanently shadowed crater at the Moon’s South Pole. The identification of water is very important to the future of human activities on the Moon. LCROSS will excavate the permanently dark floor of one of the Moon’s polar craters with two heavy impactors in 2009 to test the theory that ancient ice lies buried there. The impact will eject material from the crater’s surface to create a plume that specialized instruments will be able to analyze for the presence of water (ice and vapor), hydrocarbons and hydrated materials.
Frequently asked questions: http://lcross.arc.nasa.gov/faq.htm
Why do we care if there is water at the poles of the moon?
“Why we care if water exists at the poles of the moon can be organized into two categories: Exploration and Science. With respect to exploration, an in-situ source of lunar water would prove greatly useful for establishing significant local infrastructure. If one wants to “live off the land,” water is a key ingredient, but even if one simply wanted to make a semi-permanent establishment more versatile and efficient, locally derived water might prove invaluable. There are a variety of reasons for establishing infrastructure at either lunar pole, including a more benign thermal and illumination environment: you can find spots where it’s light nearly all the time. Having a possible water resource may be the coup de grâce!
Looking into the future, when missions to other parts of the solar system and beyond might depart directly from the moon – whose 1/6th gravity allows use of much smaller rockets to go the same distance as a mission from Earth – a means to produce rocket fuel on the moon could make a more ambitious space exploration program feasible at lower cost. While the moon’s surface is full of oxygen in various mineral forms, hydrogen is the other key element that could make rocket fuel production practical on the moon.”
“Before the end of the next decade, NASA astronauts will again explore the surface of the moon. And this time, we’re going to stay, building outposts and paving the way for eventual journeys to Mars and beyond. There are echoes of the iconic images of the past, but it won’t be your grandfather’s moon shot.”
I agree with you. What good do they expect to come of this?
At this point and time in our country, we should be doing something more positive for our people instead of spending billions of dollars crashing into the moon! When one is having financial problems the experts and our commonsense tells us not to spend money on wants/frivolous things. Why isn’t NASA adhering to this concept? I really have no desire to go to the moon. I like it here on earth and want to help improve it.
While I’m on my soapbox, the same goes for the billions of dollars spent on cancer research for at least the last century…they are no closer to finding a cure than when they started! It is a big sham! If they found a cure or admitted to finding one, think of how many people would be out of a job….its an economic issue, not humanitarian as they have you think. I quit donating. Whew….thanks, I feel better now!
AKM~
I too was a bit perplexed by that lunar endeavor….not that I have any geek creds on the subject matter ~ but know enough to question whether such an invasive tactic might somehow disrupt the spherical balance of the solar system, or its gravitational pull. Or what if the rocket had misfired or missed the intended target ~ resulting in a renegade rocket spiraling somewhere in orbit…and would they have informed us of such a mishap?
Also, I’ve never ‘knowingly’ met an Alien, but prone to believe that ‘we are not alone in the worlds…and what if ‘they’ had misinterpreted the mission ~ and fired back!
Lastly, the cost was rather exorbitant (I love that ‘orbit’ is nestled in that word), to the tune of $76x billion….and Lord knows that we surely could’ve used that funding right here on earth!
That fact-finding voyage might very well be explained by the term: lunacy
Enjoy the weekend, looking up on occasion.
Just sent off my monthly request to AFT regarding their lack of a financial disclosure statement. It’s become a habit. They promised one every quarter, but have so far produced nothing.
8. Will there be any disclosure of contributions and expenses?
Yes. The Trustee will disclose on a quarterly basis the contributions as well
as categories of expenses with amounts.
Maybe, Kristen Cole doesn’t know what quarterly means.
As Wanda Sykes says, the space program is welfare for really smart people. It is true that objects far larger than that little rocket crash into the lunar surface all the time. However, as a Moon Child and a woman, I was quite disturbed by our invasion.
No worries about the moon being knocked out of kilter. There have been extremely catastrophic impacts on the moon from large meteorites, resulting in huge crater events, and the moon still orbits in its regular way.
It has taken worse than what we gave by far, but it wasn’t “friendly fire.”
couldn’t agree more.
it seemed like everybody [maddow sticks with me in particular] was celebrating this without reservation.
it was about as appealing to me as a nuke plant on fire island.
BuffaloGal #27 Found this a few weeks ago at Crooks & Liars.
http://lnmc.crooksandliars.com/maxmarginal/cls-late-nite-music-club-50-state-st-18
You might want to send them a copy of Anatara’s cd.
too funny, Scarah has cooties, lol…..
“Privately, Republicans aides in Virginia and New Jersey fret that a Palin appearance with their candidates could offend swing voters who are turned off by the polarizing Alaskan.
“A prominent rally with Palin could easily send the independents to the Democratic candidates, and at the same time, she could motivate the Democratic Party base to turn out at a higher rate,” explained University of Virginia professor Larry Sabato.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28118.html#ixzz0TYwj8VSA
As per the link that was posted over on Bree Palins post, Mega-Mouth
seems to be in a battle of words with other RepugNuts running for re-election.
————————–
“But Stapleton says Palin is not too busy to come. She says that her boss offered to help McDonnell numerous times both in conversations with him and his campaign and through the Republican Governors Association.”
“The Governor, SarahPAC, and I have all communicated to the candidate, the campaign and to the RGA the Governor’s continued willingness to assist in any way possible – even as recently as two weeks ago,” Stapleton said.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2009/10/republican_bob_mcdonnell_repea.html
—————————
Meg… Meg… Meg… even if they ask you now to come… you say she will and then she finds a reason why she can’t. It’s a broken record playing the same tune.
And by chance I stopped by The Facebook page last night and this ‘ subject ‘ came up by one of the FB Fans. Somebody from Her Cheerleading Squad immediately jumped up and reassured the person the person who had doubts that she was going to show up in the last week of the election and put him over the top and bring in the votes to win. Gee… I guess Meg should be reading the FB page more often so she will know what to do.
Note to Meg : Sarah Palin is nothing more than a nasty version of the Swine Flu that has been unleashed. Nobody wants to get very close to her for fear of getting contaminated with ‘ IT ‘.
from the same article, lol
“When you have a domineering personality like hers, it just generates such emotions, both positive and negative,” said one GOP strategist. “Look, if Mitt Romney shows up in Virginia Beach, the Virginian-Pilot [newspaper] is covering that. If Sarah Palin shows up there, the damn New York Times is covering it.”
OMG, lol….what a slam!
“Added a Republican strategist who follows state politics: “She would be great in Southern primaries or straw polls, but a death knell in Northern Virginia among smart women.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28118_Page2.html#ixzz0TZ0r61dg
K1nb1019—-I just checked out the site for george–and didn’t see much.
Guess he hasn’t collected enought marbles to fill up the holes.
The picture of him dressed up in that get-up—–shows just how smug he is in portraying himself for what he is not.
Personally, I am far more concerned with the damage we do here, on the Earth where we live, where we are blowing things up every day for reasons far less compelling than scientific knowledge.
The moon is a cold, airless rock…astoundingly beautiful (still) and scientifically fascinating. I would rather crash a rocket than spend 10 times as much to send an astronaut, risking lives in the process.
I share with many people the anthropomorphic view of ‘Mother Earth’. I have a harder time, though, ascribing feelings to the moon.
I would like to point out that Ryan H has posted at Mudflats before and is always abrasive but never offensive. Suddenly he is now a “troll” because somefolks didn’t like what he wrote yesterday?
However abrasive he is, Ryan H spoke the truth yesterday and I agree 100% with his assessment of the Obama Administration’s lack of achievement.
Does that make me a troll?
It’s the strangest thing over ‘there’ at the cult groupie blog, they’ve done a ton of digging on who is behind the evil Levi ad, lol. I mean seriously, they are good and quick diggers. But do the dots they connect really mean anything, lol. I don’t think so.
BTW, their b*tch? the ad is demeaning to Bristol.
huh? how do they get that?
Aussie…that’s how it goes when people form communities online. It’s also why I don’t post here nearly as much as I used to though I remain a faithful reader
. No one likes to be told their opinion doesn’t fit and then be treated with troll like status.
okay…..I think mainstream media need to let these kooks shine for all they are (not) worth. I read Rachel did a show on him. I’ll go look for it.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/09/floyd-brown-impeachment/
Citing ‘Fascism, Socialism, Obamaism,’ Republican Strategist Launches Impeachment Campaign
“While the international community is heralding President Obama for his leadership, right-wing activists here in America are clamoring to impeach him. Republican operative Floyd Brown, “one of the nation’s dirtiest political strategists” and the architect of the racially-charged Willie Horton ad against Michael Dukakis, has launched a campaign to impeach Obama. Brown, who registered his impeachment website in August, worked closely with congressional Republicans to push a similar crusade against Clinton, starting in 1994. During the 2008 campaign, Floyd ran commercials claiming Obama is Muslim.”
I agree with Aussie Blue Sky and SillyWhabbit Seattle, Wa just because someone has a different view does not make them a troll. If we start calling people with different views trolls, we are not better than some conservative sites. It’s not the people who agree with you but the ones who disagree that make you think.
To paraphrase Shannyn, “We can disagree as long as we bring our manners.”
I don’t like it !!! Leave the Moon alone !!! Feed some starving children !!! Give some sick people hope !!! Spay some cats !!! Leave the Moon alone !!!
Jees I just skimmed over the article about the crash and though it was an accident and was glad to hear it was unmanned now I hear it was done on purpose!!! The moon is just to close to be monkeying with if it should explode or fall apart huge chunks would fall on this world.Leave the moon alone.We have ways to see where water is or is not here on earth ,why not use that on the moon?
to #14 Klnb1019 – not sure one can expect much more out of the website designer “”Chickenhead Productions”
Too funny!
I have to be one of the most unobservant people on the planet. I just noticed the Mudflats nomination by blogger’s choice as the best political blog of 2009. Will cast my vote as soon as they reset my password.
Also, would like to encourage everyone to frequent the Forum. After almost a year at Mudflats I have started to spend more time on the Forum. I used to think it was complicated, but the more time you spend there the easier it gets.
Next on my agenda is to learn more about I Heart Mudflats.
@ Aussie~
No, we are certainly entitled to our own opinions….but agree or disagree, here is the quote taken from the Nobel Prize Org. as to their collective reasoning for awarding President Obama such a prestigious award:
“The Nobel Peace Prize goes to President Barack Obama “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples.”
http://nobelprize.org/
““““““““““““““““““““
I completely concur with their pronouncement….
Have a pleasant weekend.
Since I wanted to see if SP had made a New negative Note on her FB page about the President winning the Nobel Prize yesterday I poked my head in there last night. No personal Note but her Fans were all on a hate rant about it. New conspiracy theories, name calling and the like.
Some of the regulars there are encouraging the flock to email CBS and the Letterman Show again with their faux Lies and smears.
I used the link they provided to email in my ‘ support ‘ or counterbalance. I also included in my response to CBS that SP is a Fraud and will be found out and they need to check out Gryphens blog as well as a few of those other blogs by name.
I said Sarah is trying to fool everyone and the Pictures and stories on these blogs will ‘ expose ‘ her .
Feedback to CBS cuts both ways. My .02
http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_global_form.php
pearl89, I agree with you. As long as everyone behaves as if they are guests in AKM’s house- this is not our home- a good discussion is great. In fact it is more stimulating than just reiterating each others view points and agreeing all the time. Some places I’ve checked out make me feel like I have just barged in on a private conversation. I like the community feeling here, but it shouldn’t be exclusive and new guests shouldn’t be treated like intruders unless they misbehave.
Stuff has been happening with the moon for decades (just one of many interesting projects!) – just no one paying much attention. Nobody cares. We wanna know if Angelina Jolie’s lips are real and if Brad Pitt’s been dating. We know more about what Paris Hilton does, than we do about what NASA does.
Meteors usually crash at about 15 miles (25 kilometers) per second. Human-caused moon impacts hit at a tenth of that speed. There have already been a number of intentional moon impacts.
This morning, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter team released an image of a crater on the moon formed by Apollo 14′s Saturn IVB booster, 38 years ago. The booster was intentionally impacted into the lunar surface on Feb. 4, 1971 and caused a minor “moonquake” that scientists used to learn about the moon’s interior structure. Seismometers placed on the surface by the Apollo 12 astronauts returned data on the tremor.
“The crater is about 35 meters (115 feet). The interior of the crater has bright mounds, and a bright ejecta blanket surrounds the exterior of the crater. Bright rays are observed to extend across the surface for more than 1.5 km (0.9 miles) from the impact. This LROC image was taken when the sun was relatively high in the sky, bringing out subtle differences in reflectivity or brightness. This site has been observed before, and scientists noted the unusual occurrence of dark and bright rays when the Apollo 16 spacecraft observed the site.”
Comparing the Apollo booster impact to LCROSS, the Apollo impact velocity was at 9,144 kph (5,682 mph.) The booster component weighed 14,000 kg (30,835 lbs) at the time of impact, and the impact energy was equivalent to just over 10 tons of TNT. A seismometer placed in 1969 by Apollo 12 astronauts recorded the vibrations, which lasted for about three hours. The LCROSS impactor is much smaller and made a smaller crater. The Centaur weighs about 2000 kg (4,409 lbs) and will hit with a velocity of about 9,000 kph (5,592 mph.)
Thought-provoking, well-written article, worth the read:
Is space exploration worth the cost?
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1040/1
It points out that ‘economic value’ is not just how much it cost, but about what we got for our money.
The amount of NASA’s budget works out to approximately $57.10 per year per taxpayer (based on numbers of Americans paying taxes on Tax Day). This is $1.09 a week, or 15 cents a day. (2007)
Here’s some food for thought.
~The federal government spends over 30 times as much money on Social Security as it does on NASA.
~NASA’s budget is roughly the same size as the state budgets of Alabama, Connecticut, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri and Tennessee.
~Microsoft’s corporate revenues in 1998 were roughly the same as NASA’s budget that year.
~Americans spent over 19 times as much at restaurants in 1997 as the federal government spent on NASA that year.
For every federal dollar ($1.00) spent on NASA, Americans spent:
$32.15 on recreation
$10.94 on religious and welfare activities
Other statistics and confirmation that “Space pays” may also be found in the 1976 Chase Econometrics Associates, Inc. reports (“The Economic Impact of NASA R&D Spending: Preliminary Executive Summary.”, April 1975. Also: “Relative Impact of NASA Expenditure on the Economy.”, March 18, 1975) and backed by the 1989 Chapman Research report, which examined just 259 non-space applications of NASA technology during an eight year period (1976-1984) and found more than:
— $21.6 billion in sales and benefits;
— 352,000 (mostly skilled) jobs created or saved;
— $355 million in federal corporate income taxes
Other benefits: state corporate income taxes, individual personal income taxes (federal and state) paid by those 352,000 workers, and incalculable benefits resulting from lives saved and improved quality of life.
According to a 1992 article in the British science journal ‘Nature’, these 259 applications represent “. . .only 1% of an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 Space program spin-offs. These benefits were in addition to benefits in the Space industry itself and in addition to the ordinary multiplied effects of any government spending.”
In 2002, the aerospace industry contributed more than $95 billion to U.S. economic activity, which included $23.5 billion in employee earnings, and employed 576,000 people—a 16% increase in jobs from three years earlier.
[Federal Aviation Administration, March 2004]
Fifteen firms that received an initial $64 million in NASA life sciences research added $200 million of their own money and created a $1.5 billion return on investment in the form of sold commercial goods and services during 25 years.
[Hertzfeld, Henry. "Measuring the Returns to NASA Life Sciences Research and Development". Space Policy Institute. George Washington University.]
In other words, it pays for itself.
Dateline: Some day in the future. . .
When the Moon has been colonized for scientific, humanistic or political ends, to the extent that Moon Day. . .a national or international global holiday. . .comes under fire, much like Columbus Day. . .and eloquent defenses such as yours enters the pantheon of ‘alien invader’ records. I’m thinking of the Jesuit priest records which pushed back against the slavery of the South Americans in the 1500s and 1600s. . .I’m thinking the ‘New History’ take on the European invasion of the Americas. . .all good stuff, but still, only a slice of truth, and evolving. . .
What is the difference? The New World had people in it. The Moon does not.
We have all loved the Moon, will continue to love the Moon beyond its objective qualities, for all of our childhood wondering, and all of the folklore that gave rise to our Love Of Moon. We cannot reach the stars, they are impermeable. . .but the Moon, we have stepped onto it. A Boy Scout laid down his jacket so that all the world might cross the street.
So, dammit, what could be more perfect than doing a little biopsy on the Man We Love Too Much? Your love might be more perfect than mine, but mine has a huge appetite. My love embraces the explosive. . .and I am a girl.
Love comes in many forms, and is sometimes destructive, in its progress. But I have yet to see Mankind able to perfectly parse what stands the test of time, and what does not, within the span of a generation. . .or two.
Totally with you on this, AKM. First we trash planet earth, and then we toss our junk out there onto the moon also.
sorry, I posted this on the wrong open thread…….
Ya know, it may take the American public to stop Rupert Murdock from destroying our country from the inside out. Look what he has done in a very short period of time.
He only became a citizen in order to own tv media here, and he’s only been a US (cough) citizen since 1985! 24 short years ago.
Fake News is 13 yrs old this month, may it be the worst year possible. Look at what he’s grown it into, how he is manipulating and influencing some of our fellow citizens, look at how he is working at dividing our political parties, drumming up devision among our citizens, daily. He tabloid sensationalizes news to grab attention so he can claim the highest ratings. Ratings, ha, maybe worthy of a ‘tabloid’ tv network.
No wonder President Obama won’t go on Fake News. It proves to me he’s not in Rupert’s pocket and that he well understands his methodology.
Now that I understand more of what he’s about and up to I’m angry, at what I think is the #1 enemy behind all this hate discord, he’s manipulating all this. Many of our politicians are in his pocket. He’s driving our country backward and possibly to self destruct, I’m not sure. Also, no wonder he likes Scarah and has brought her into his spidery political web.
The public needs to take him down and kick him out. It’s not enough to just boycott Glenn Beck advertisers. We need to boycott Fake News period. Most Americans are clueless about who Murdock is, ask the average person on ‘mainstreet’ if they know who he is, where he came from and what he has done, his background, now that would be an eye opener.
A good one for Max B. to take on.
I feel like we are sitting ducks. He is more dangerous to our democracy and safety than Scarah.
Someone needs dig up dirt so we can charge him with treason, take away his US citizenship, fine him big bucks, shut down or sell fake news and his US owned newspapers. Have him kicked out of our country. Banned. Period. I don’t want his influence here. It’s poison.
There is a boatload of background resource info on him and his dirty deeds at the link below. This Aussie is worried for our country. Please pass this link around, get this info out there. Thank you!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/18/780918/-An-Aussie-Visiting-AmericaAdrenalin-Media
“This has me thinking is Rupert Murdoch doing it again?
Has he pretended to be non-combative, almost empathetic to Barack Obama and of course Australia’s new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, waited until they were elected and is his next big challenge to have them thrown out in disgrace by convincing people of some great outrage that is simply blown out of all proportion?
There are a number of indicators that Murdoch is trying to poison the democratically elected governments public profile in both these countries, not wait for elections and let the people decide and by extension destroy democracy once again. Maybe this time he’ll finish off once and for all rule by the people for the people and make it rule by whatever the hell Fox News wants.”
[......]
“Fox News Network – The Crowning Jewel for manipulating the public
Established on October 7 1996, the Fox News channel was designed to make use of the most eye-catching, attention grabbing graphics and unleash the adrenalin of its viewers to a high level, unseen in existing network news.
From the beginning, FNC has placed heavy emphasis on visual presentation. Graphics were designed to be colorful and attention grabbing and to allow people to get the main points of what was being said even if they could not hear the host, through the use of on-screen text summarizing the position of the interviewer or speaker and “bullet points” when a host was giving commentary.
Interspersed throughout the Fox shows are genuine ‘human interest’ stories intended to calm, to bring that adrenalin level right back down, alleviate some of the shock and outrage built during the talk show host segments. Fox News Extra is designed to take its viewers back to a place they can either see themselves in, or show such heart warming stories, that the viewer finds themselves feeling a sense of empathy, of connection with the people, places or subjects in the stories. Regular people often doing extraordinary things.
Fox News also created the “Fox News Alert,” which interrupted regular programming when a breaking news story occurred.”
I always wondered about space exploration and if in reality we could have people living off the earth as at least from a few years back it was said we would be overpopulated and would need more space.If so will we have enough time?
Pearl 189 will answer you on an open thread about the awards deal thanks
2009 is the 50th anniversary of the Mercury program and the “Mercury Seven” – Gus Grissom, Alan Shephard, Scott Carpenter, Wally Schirra, Deke Slayton, John Glenn and Gordon Cooper.
“I can’t believe it’s been that long,” John Glenn said. “The experience back then of being selected and participating in the early flights is so vivid to me, it seems like this all happened a couple of weeks ago.”
Real American heroes.
NASA is the only American organization that I can think of that is a singularly genuine collaborative effort, without competition and aggression, to a unified international space program.
The International Space Station is an internationally-developed research facility currently being assembled in low earth orbit. The ISS is operated as a joint project between the U.S. (NASA), Russia (RKA), the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), the Canadian Space Agency (CSA) and the European Space Agency (ESA), through intergovernmental treaties and agreements.
36 countries have trained astronauts – U.S., Czechoslovakia, Poland, Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary, Vietnam, Cuba, Mongolia, Romania, France, India, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Netherlands, Mexico, Syria, Afghanistan, Japan, U.K., Austria, Russia, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Ukraine, Spain, Slovakia, South Africa, Israel, China, Brazil, Iran, Sweden, Malaysia, South Korea, Denmark.
We can stop spending that 15 cents a day on the space program. There is no question that the rest of the world will go on without us.
As long as MY tax dollars support “faith-based” programs like Jerry Prevo’s temple, the Graham folks and their kingdoms scattered throughout Alaska and at Lake Clark, the lucrative aviation repair service “ministries” that own Sikorsky helicopters, then I get to pretend that MY $57 a year is supporting science!
…maybe I’ll just write my check now and send it directly to NASA…
Non of our tax dollars should go to support faith based churches like Provos and or Grahams,Seems to me the leaders live like ikings in some of these mega church preachers and the flocks live on little or nothing,I would much rather se my tax dollars go towards science in whateve manner is deemed correct. I just read an article,don’t remember the name .It was on the net in the news about cancer and one of theplaces in Canada had come up witha finding about how cancer started or something like that for one type of cancer.It said now they were going to follow thru on other types.
Pearl 189 Thanks I forgot this was an open thread.I voeted and looking thry saw that this site was also in for the best blogger award under mudflats.net #6 and #9 mudflats.wordpress.com also
Utterly sad that this is still so common in the United States:
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/anti-obama-sign-in-georgia-uses-n-word/
Seems a group of people went to, John McCain’s, home town to be Spiritually cleansed and now 2 are dead and others in the hospital.
“A sweat lodge is an enclosed structure in which heated rocks are doused with water to create steam and saunalike conditions. Adapted from Native American tradition, it is thought to help purify both body and spirit. ”
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/10/10/20091010sweatlodge1010.html
I miss shannyns’ show last weekend, the Steve guy is sitting in for her. Didn’t know she wasn’t going to be on this weekend.
Thread is up now for the Shannyn Moore Show. Give Steve a call! AKM
GG2B….
That’s precisely why I refuse to click on such links….giving their brand of ignorance further credence. Surely, it will not change things whether I choose to view it or not, as that remnant will always be amongst us (especially since they are now re-indoctrinating their offspring with infectious hatred and bigotry).
We’ve come a long way in the country ~ with yet so far to travel…and with all the modern-day advances, in many ways, we loose the gain.
“The Governor, SarahPAC, and I have all communicated to the candidate, the campaign and to the RGA the Governor’s continued willingness to assist in any way possible – even as recently as two weeks ago,” Stapleton said.
Does Stapleton realize that Palin is no longer, the Governor? Palin shouldn’t be addressed with title. She quit!!
I wonder how long it will take for that rocket to fall back down to earth. I have this vision of walking and something fall on my head. Or, flying in an airplane and see something floating in the air. Man will destroy anything they can get there hands on.
64 CG Says:
October 10th, 2009 at 2:01 PM
————————
Great post.
“Is space exploration worth the cost?” …..Yes. To infinity and beyoooooooond……………..
Lee~
Was that Buzz Lightyear?
@ Cynamen Winter
———————-
Yep. Kind of a combination of Buzz Lightyear and Star Trek……you know, when the Enterprise goes into warp drive and the music starts at the beginning of each episode. Haha.