Open Thread – War on the Moon
10 10 2009Those are the same stars, and that is the same moon, that look down upon your brothers and sisters, and which they see as they look up to them, though they are ever so far away from us, and each other. ~Sojourner Truth
Is it just me? When I heard that NASA had crashed a rocket into the moon so hard that it buried itself 12 feet under the lunar surface, I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it one little bit.
I should say before I go any further that I appreciate the purpose of the mission. The rocket is dislodging the sediment at the bottom of a lunar crater to see if it can find frozen water. I appreciate that in two ways. First, I enjoy the quest for knowledge for its own sake. I think it’s important for the human species to have great challenges that elevate our imaginations and stretch our thinking. It’s good for us. Second, at the rate we’re going with the water on this planet, it’s probably in our best interest to know if we have a backup supply. Our great great grandchildren may be residing in some lunar condominium sucking drinking water up from the bottom of dark craters whose lack of sunlight ensured the preservation of pure, ancient water ice. It isn’t pretty, but it’s better than nothing.
On top of that, I’m pretty much a science geek. The first occupation I can ever remember wanting to have was that of a physical analytical biochemist. How can one be expected to limit oneself to only one single branch of chemistry? I loved thinking about the bigger questions of what stuff is, how it fits together and what it means for life on the planet.
I got a Barbie camper under the tree one Christmas. I cried. I just knew that Santa had gotten that list mixed up. The next year, he redeemed himself when I got a rock hammer and a chemistry set.
And space? LOVE it! I’m a Hubble photo addict, I own a big fat telescope, and I even have a rather extensive collection of meteorites, which I can talk about at great length until even the most avid rock hound glazes over and looks for the quickest escape route.
Hopefully, I have now convinced you of my geek cred.
And after all that, I still really do not like the rocket in the moon. Couldn’t we have sent it to Mars or somewhere that wasn’t OURS? And did NASA ask permission before they blasted vast chunks of the moon into space? Is the moon simply there so that the United States can take shots at it, like Napoleon’s army did with the Sphinx? What about the Italians? The French? The Russians? What about the people in Zimbabwe? It’s their moon too, isn’t it? They lie with their backs to the Earth and look at it. One of the few things that unites humanity in a common bond is our love of the moon. Nobody doesn’t love the moon.
The moon has been a sacred object; mythical, spiritual, a thing of radiant beauty. When we stepped on it, we stepped lightly. OK, we had no choice because of the lack of gravity, but still. I like to think we would have stepped lightly anyway, on principle. Lovers watch it dance on the water, moths try to reach it, children watch it shine through bedroom curtains, wolves howl at it, even oceans are bent by its will as tides go in and out as they have for millenia. And now we’ve just gone and launched a giant metal object at it, and blown off chunks of it into space.
I may know part of my problem. I remember the first time I saw the film ”Le Voyage Dans la Lune.” Filmed in 1902, it was the first film of the science fiction genre, and its novelty and innovation aside, it freaked me out. In the film, a group of scientists launched a rocket at the moon with horrifying results.
Well, it was horrifying to a seven year old. So maybe it’s my own fault for anthropomorphizing the moon. In my defense, I wouldn’t be the first. SOMEbody came up with the “Man in the Moon” concept, and we see images of moons with faces all the time. So it feels like an assault, a punch in the kisser, a knuckle sandwich for the Man in the Moon from Uncle Sam.
Perhaps when this is all over, we will have convinced the moon to give up some of its secrets by force. Perhaps in a couple hundred years our species will be finding precious clean water on another celestial body, and sucking it up with a giant soda straw from our new lunar homes, long after we should have become extinct. I’m sure there was a bunch of Woo-Hooing going on at NASA. After all, there is a brand new crater on the moon tonight. And I also realize that blasting all that material off the surface of the moon may result in an unanticipated bonus. If those chunks find their way to Earth, we get lunar meteorites, a real collector’s item and worth quite a bit of money for the person who finds them.
But I still don’t have to like it.
The sun, the moon and the stars would have disappeared long ago… had they happened to be within the reach of predatory human hands. – Henry Ellis
October 10th, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Personally, I am far more concerned with the damage we do here, on the Earth where we live, where we are blowing things up every day for reasons far less compelling than scientific knowledge.
The moon is a cold, airless rock…astoundingly beautiful (still) and scientifically fascinating. I would rather crash a rocket than spend 10 times as much to send an astronaut, risking lives in the process.
I share with many people the anthropomorphic view of ‘Mother Earth’. I have a harder time, though, ascribing feelings to the moon.
October 10th, 2009 at 11:47 AM
I would like to point out that Ryan H has posted at Mudflats before and is always abrasive but never offensive. Suddenly he is now a “troll” because somefolks didn’t like what he wrote yesterday?
However abrasive he is, Ryan H spoke the truth yesterday and I agree 100% with his assessment of the Obama Administration’s lack of achievement.
Does that make me a troll?
October 10th, 2009 at 11:52 AM
It’s the strangest thing over ‘there’ at the cult groupie blog, they’ve done a ton of digging on who is behind the evil Levi ad, lol. I mean seriously, they are good and quick diggers. But do the dots they connect really mean anything, lol. I don’t think so.
BTW, their b*tch? the ad is demeaning to Bristol.
huh? how do they get that?
October 10th, 2009 at 12:03 PM
Aussie…that’s how it goes when people form communities online. It’s also why I don’t post here nearly as much as I used to though I remain a faithful reader
. No one likes to be told their opinion doesn’t fit and then be treated with troll like status.
October 10th, 2009 at 12:10 PM
okay…..I think mainstream media need to let these kooks shine for all they are (not) worth. I read Rachel did a show on him. I’ll go look for it.
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/10/09/floyd-brown-impeachment/
Citing ‘Fascism, Socialism, Obamaism,’ Republican Strategist Launches Impeachment Campaign
“While the international community is heralding President Obama for his leadership, right-wing activists here in America are clamoring to impeach him. Republican operative Floyd Brown, “one of the nation’s dirtiest political strategists” and the architect of the racially-charged Willie Horton ad against Michael Dukakis, has launched a campaign to impeach Obama. Brown, who registered his impeachment website in August, worked closely with congressional Republicans to push a similar crusade against Clinton, starting in 1994. During the 2008 campaign, Floyd ran commercials claiming Obama is Muslim.”
October 10th, 2009 at 12:18 PM
I agree with Aussie Blue Sky and SillyWhabbit Seattle, Wa just because someone has a different view does not make them a troll. If we start calling people with different views trolls, we are not better than some conservative sites. It’s not the people who agree with you but the ones who disagree that make you think.
To paraphrase Shannyn, “We can disagree as long as we bring our manners.”
October 10th, 2009 at 12:24 PM
I don’t like it !!! Leave the Moon alone !!! Feed some starving children !!! Give some sick people hope !!! Spay some cats !!! Leave the Moon alone !!!
October 10th, 2009 at 12:32 PM
Jees I just skimmed over the article about the crash and though it was an accident and was glad to hear it was unmanned now I hear it was done on purpose!!! The moon is just to close to be monkeying with if it should explode or fall apart huge chunks would fall on this world.Leave the moon alone.We have ways to see where water is or is not here on earth ,why not use that on the moon?
October 10th, 2009 at 12:36 PM
to #14 Klnb1019 – not sure one can expect much more out of the website designer “”Chickenhead Productions”
Too funny!
October 10th, 2009 at 12:51 PM
I have to be one of the most unobservant people on the planet. I just noticed the Mudflats nomination by blogger’s choice as the best political blog of 2009. Will cast my vote as soon as they reset my password.
Also, would like to encourage everyone to frequent the Forum. After almost a year at Mudflats I have started to spend more time on the Forum. I used to think it was complicated, but the more time you spend there the easier it gets.
Next on my agenda is to learn more about I Heart Mudflats.
October 10th, 2009 at 1:01 PM
@ Aussie~
No, we are certainly entitled to our own opinions….but agree or disagree, here is the quote taken from the Nobel Prize Org. as to their collective reasoning for awarding President Obama such a prestigious award:
“The Nobel Peace Prize goes to President Barack Obama “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples.”
http://nobelprize.org/
““““““““““““““““““““
I completely concur with their pronouncement….
Have a pleasant weekend.
October 10th, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Since I wanted to see if SP had made a New negative Note on her FB page about the President winning the Nobel Prize yesterday I poked my head in there last night. No personal Note but her Fans were all on a hate rant about it. New conspiracy theories, name calling and the like.
Some of the regulars there are encouraging the flock to email CBS and the Letterman Show again with their faux Lies and smears.
I used the link they provided to email in my ‘ support ‘ or counterbalance. I also included in my response to CBS that SP is a Fraud and will be found out and they need to check out Gryphens blog as well as a few of those other blogs by name.
I said Sarah is trying to fool everyone and the Pictures and stories on these blogs will ‘ expose ‘ her .
Feedback to CBS cuts both ways. My .02
http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_global_form.php
October 10th, 2009 at 1:57 PM
pearl89, I agree with you. As long as everyone behaves as if they are guests in AKM’s house- this is not our home- a good discussion is great. In fact it is more stimulating than just reiterating each others view points and agreeing all the time. Some places I’ve checked out make me feel like I have just barged in on a private conversation. I like the community feeling here, but it shouldn’t be exclusive and new guests shouldn’t be treated like intruders unless they misbehave.
October 10th, 2009 at 2:01 PM
Stuff has been happening with the moon for decades (just one of many interesting projects!) – just no one paying much attention. Nobody cares. We wanna know if Angelina Jolie’s lips are real and if Brad Pitt’s been dating. We know more about what Paris Hilton does, than we do about what NASA does.
Meteors usually crash at about 15 miles (25 kilometers) per second. Human-caused moon impacts hit at a tenth of that speed. There have already been a number of intentional moon impacts.
This morning, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter team released an image of a crater on the moon formed by Apollo 14’s Saturn IVB booster, 38 years ago. The booster was intentionally impacted into the lunar surface on Feb. 4, 1971 and caused a minor “moonquake” that scientists used to learn about the moon’s interior structure. Seismometers placed on the surface by the Apollo 12 astronauts returned data on the tremor.
“The crater is about 35 meters (115 feet). The interior of the crater has bright mounds, and a bright ejecta blanket surrounds the exterior of the crater. Bright rays are observed to extend across the surface for more than 1.5 km (0.9 miles) from the impact. This LROC image was taken when the sun was relatively high in the sky, bringing out subtle differences in reflectivity or brightness. This site has been observed before, and scientists noted the unusual occurrence of dark and bright rays when the Apollo 16 spacecraft observed the site.”
Comparing the Apollo booster impact to LCROSS, the Apollo impact velocity was at 9,144 kph (5,682 mph.) The booster component weighed 14,000 kg (30,835 lbs) at the time of impact, and the impact energy was equivalent to just over 10 tons of TNT. A seismometer placed in 1969 by Apollo 12 astronauts recorded the vibrations, which lasted for about three hours. The LCROSS impactor is much smaller and made a smaller crater. The Centaur weighs about 2000 kg (4,409 lbs) and will hit with a velocity of about 9,000 kph (5,592 mph.)
Thought-provoking, well-written article, worth the read:
Is space exploration worth the cost?
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1040/1
It points out that ‘economic value’ is not just how much it cost, but about what we got for our money.
The amount of NASA’s budget works out to approximately $57.10 per year per taxpayer (based on numbers of Americans paying taxes on Tax Day). This is $1.09 a week, or 15 cents a day. (2007)
Here’s some food for thought.
~The federal government spends over 30 times as much money on Social Security as it does on NASA.
~NASA’s budget is roughly the same size as the state budgets of Alabama, Connecticut, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri and Tennessee.
~Microsoft’s corporate revenues in 1998 were roughly the same as NASA’s budget that year.
~Americans spent over 19 times as much at restaurants in 1997 as the federal government spent on NASA that year.
For every federal dollar ($1.00) spent on NASA, Americans spent:
$32.15 on recreation
$10.94 on religious and welfare activities
Other statistics and confirmation that “Space pays” may also be found in the 1976 Chase Econometrics Associates, Inc. reports (”The Economic Impact of NASA R&D Spending: Preliminary Executive Summary.”, April 1975. Also: “Relative Impact of NASA Expenditure on the Economy.”, March 18, 1975) and backed by the 1989 Chapman Research report, which examined just 259 non-space applications of NASA technology during an eight year period (1976-1984) and found more than:
— $21.6 billion in sales and benefits;
— 352,000 (mostly skilled) jobs created or saved;
— $355 million in federal corporate income taxes
Other benefits: state corporate income taxes, individual personal income taxes (federal and state) paid by those 352,000 workers, and incalculable benefits resulting from lives saved and improved quality of life.
According to a 1992 article in the British science journal ‘Nature’, these 259 applications represent “. . .only 1% of an estimated 25,000 to 30,000 Space program spin-offs. These benefits were in addition to benefits in the Space industry itself and in addition to the ordinary multiplied effects of any government spending.”
In 2002, the aerospace industry contributed more than $95 billion to U.S. economic activity, which included $23.5 billion in employee earnings, and employed 576,000 people—a 16% increase in jobs from three years earlier.
[Federal Aviation Administration, March 2004]
Fifteen firms that received an initial $64 million in NASA life sciences research added $200 million of their own money and created a $1.5 billion return on investment in the form of sold commercial goods and services during 25 years.
[Hertzfeld, Henry. "Measuring the Returns to NASA Life Sciences Research and Development". Space Policy Institute. George Washington University.]
In other words, it pays for itself.
October 10th, 2009 at 2:22 PM
Dateline: Some day in the future. . .
When the Moon has been colonized for scientific, humanistic or political ends, to the extent that Moon Day. . .a national or international global holiday. . .comes under fire, much like Columbus Day. . .and eloquent defenses such as yours enters the pantheon of ‘alien invader’ records. I’m thinking of the Jesuit priest records which pushed back against the slavery of the South Americans in the 1500s and 1600s. . .I’m thinking the ‘New History’ take on the European invasion of the Americas. . .all good stuff, but still, only a slice of truth, and evolving. . .
What is the difference? The New World had people in it. The Moon does not.
We have all loved the Moon, will continue to love the Moon beyond its objective qualities, for all of our childhood wondering, and all of the folklore that gave rise to our Love Of Moon. We cannot reach the stars, they are impermeable. . .but the Moon, we have stepped onto it. A Boy Scout laid down his jacket so that all the world might cross the street.
So, dammit, what could be more perfect than doing a little biopsy on the Man We Love Too Much? Your love might be more perfect than mine, but mine has a huge appetite. My love embraces the explosive. . .and I am a girl.
Love comes in many forms, and is sometimes destructive, in its progress. But I have yet to see Mankind able to perfectly parse what stands the test of time, and what does not, within the span of a generation. . .or two.
October 10th, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Totally with you on this, AKM. First we trash planet earth, and then we toss our junk out there onto the moon also.
October 10th, 2009 at 3:14 PM
sorry, I posted this on the wrong open thread…….
Ya know, it may take the American public to stop Rupert Murdock from destroying our country from the inside out. Look what he has done in a very short period of time.
He only became a citizen in order to own tv media here, and he’s only been a US (cough) citizen since 1985! 24 short years ago.
Fake News is 13 yrs old this month, may it be the worst year possible. Look at what he’s grown it into, how he is manipulating and influencing some of our fellow citizens, look at how he is working at dividing our political parties, drumming up devision among our citizens, daily. He tabloid sensationalizes news to grab attention so he can claim the highest ratings. Ratings, ha, maybe worthy of a ‘tabloid’ tv network.
No wonder President Obama won’t go on Fake News. It proves to me he’s not in Rupert’s pocket and that he well understands his methodology.
Now that I understand more of what he’s about and up to I’m angry, at what I think is the #1 enemy behind all this hate discord, he’s manipulating all this. Many of our politicians are in his pocket. He’s driving our country backward and possibly to self destruct, I’m not sure. Also, no wonder he likes Scarah and has brought her into his spidery political web.
The public needs to take him down and kick him out. It’s not enough to just boycott Glenn Beck advertisers. We need to boycott Fake News period. Most Americans are clueless about who Murdock is, ask the average person on ‘mainstreet’ if they know who he is, where he came from and what he has done, his background, now that would be an eye opener.
A good one for Max B. to take on.
I feel like we are sitting ducks. He is more dangerous to our democracy and safety than Scarah.
Someone needs dig up dirt so we can charge him with treason, take away his US citizenship, fine him big bucks, shut down or sell fake news and his US owned newspapers. Have him kicked out of our country. Banned. Period. I don’t want his influence here. It’s poison.
There is a boatload of background resource info on him and his dirty deeds at the link below. This Aussie is worried for our country. Please pass this link around, get this info out there. Thank you!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/18/780918/-An-Aussie-Visiting-AmericaAdrenalin-Media
“This has me thinking is Rupert Murdoch doing it again?
Has he pretended to be non-combative, almost empathetic to Barack Obama and of course Australia’s new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, waited until they were elected and is his next big challenge to have them thrown out in disgrace by convincing people of some great outrage that is simply blown out of all proportion?
There are a number of indicators that Murdoch is trying to poison the democratically elected governments public profile in both these countries, not wait for elections and let the people decide and by extension destroy democracy once again. Maybe this time he’ll finish off once and for all rule by the people for the people and make it rule by whatever the hell Fox News wants.”
[......]
“Fox News Network – The Crowning Jewel for manipulating the public
Established on October 7 1996, the Fox News channel was designed to make use of the most eye-catching, attention grabbing graphics and unleash the adrenalin of its viewers to a high level, unseen in existing network news.
From the beginning, FNC has placed heavy emphasis on visual presentation. Graphics were designed to be colorful and attention grabbing and to allow people to get the main points of what was being said even if they could not hear the host, through the use of on-screen text summarizing the position of the interviewer or speaker and “bullet points” when a host was giving commentary.
Interspersed throughout the Fox shows are genuine ‘human interest’ stories intended to calm, to bring that adrenalin level right back down, alleviate some of the shock and outrage built during the talk show host segments. Fox News Extra is designed to take its viewers back to a place they can either see themselves in, or show such heart warming stories, that the viewer finds themselves feeling a sense of empathy, of connection with the people, places or subjects in the stories. Regular people often doing extraordinary things.
Fox News also created the “Fox News Alert,” which interrupted regular programming when a breaking news story occurred.”
October 10th, 2009 at 3:18 PM
I always wondered about space exploration and if in reality we could have people living off the earth as at least from a few years back it was said we would be overpopulated and would need more space.If so will we have enough time?
Pearl 189 will answer you on an open thread about the awards deal thanks
October 10th, 2009 at 3:18 PM
2009 is the 50th anniversary of the Mercury program and the “Mercury Seven” – Gus Grissom, Alan Shephard, Scott Carpenter, Wally Schirra, Deke Slayton, John Glenn and Gordon Cooper.
“I can’t believe it’s been that long,” John Glenn said. “The experience back then of being selected and participating in the early flights is so vivid to me, it seems like this all happened a couple of weeks ago.”
Real American heroes.
NASA is the only American organization that I can think of that is a singularly genuine collaborative effort, without competition and aggression, to a unified international space program.
The International Space Station is an internationally-developed research facility currently being assembled in low earth orbit. The ISS is operated as a joint project between the U.S. (NASA), Russia (RKA), the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), the Canadian Space Agency (CSA) and the European Space Agency (ESA), through intergovernmental treaties and agreements.
36 countries have trained astronauts – U.S., Czechoslovakia, Poland, Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary, Vietnam, Cuba, Mongolia, Romania, France, India, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Netherlands, Mexico, Syria, Afghanistan, Japan, U.K., Austria, Russia, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland, Ukraine, Spain, Slovakia, South Africa, Israel, China, Brazil, Iran, Sweden, Malaysia, South Korea, Denmark.
We can stop spending that 15 cents a day on the space program. There is no question that the rest of the world will go on without us.
As long as MY tax dollars support “faith-based” programs like Jerry Prevo’s temple, the Graham folks and their kingdoms scattered throughout Alaska and at Lake Clark, the lucrative aviation repair service “ministries” that own Sikorsky helicopters, then I get to pretend that MY $57 a year is supporting science!
…maybe I’ll just write my check now and send it directly to NASA…
October 10th, 2009 at 3:28 PM
Non of our tax dollars should go to support faith based churches like Provos and or Grahams,Seems to me the leaders live like ikings in some of these mega church preachers and the flocks live on little or nothing,I would much rather se my tax dollars go towards science in whateve manner is deemed correct. I just read an article,don’t remember the name .It was on the net in the news about cancer and one of theplaces in Canada had come up witha finding about how cancer started or something like that for one type of cancer.It said now they were going to follow thru on other types.
Pearl 189 Thanks I forgot this was an open thread.I voeted and looking thry saw that this site was also in for the best blogger award under mudflats.net #6 and #9 mudflats.wordpress.com also
October 10th, 2009 at 3:36 PM
Utterly sad that this is still so common in the United States:
http://rawstory.com/2009/10/anti-obama-sign-in-georgia-uses-n-word/
October 10th, 2009 at 3:56 PM
Seems a group of people went to, John McCain’s, home town to be Spiritually cleansed and now 2 are dead and others in the hospital.
“A sweat lodge is an enclosed structure in which heated rocks are doused with water to create steam and saunalike conditions. Adapted from Native American tradition, it is thought to help purify both body and spirit. ”
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/10/10/20091010sweatlodge1010.html
October 10th, 2009 at 4:37 PM
I miss shannyns’ show last weekend, the Steve guy is sitting in for her. Didn’t know she wasn’t going to be on this weekend.
Thread is up now for the Shannyn Moore Show. Give Steve a call! AKM
October 10th, 2009 at 4:58 PM
GG2B….
That’s precisely why I refuse to click on such links….giving their brand of ignorance further credence. Surely, it will not change things whether I choose to view it or not, as that remnant will always be amongst us (especially since they are now re-indoctrinating their offspring with infectious hatred and bigotry).
We’ve come a long way in the country ~ with yet so far to travel…and with all the modern-day advances, in many ways, we loose the gain.
October 10th, 2009 at 7:46 PM
“The Governor, SarahPAC, and I have all communicated to the candidate, the campaign and to the RGA the Governor’s continued willingness to assist in any way possible – even as recently as two weeks ago,” Stapleton said.
Does Stapleton realize that Palin is no longer, the Governor? Palin shouldn’t be addressed with title. She quit!!
October 10th, 2009 at 7:52 PM
I wonder how long it will take for that rocket to fall back down to earth. I have this vision of walking and something fall on my head. Or, flying in an airplane and see something floating in the air. Man will destroy anything they can get there hands on.
October 10th, 2009 at 8:08 PM
64 CG Says:
October 10th, 2009 at 2:01 PM
————————
Great post.
“Is space exploration worth the cost?” …..Yes. To infinity and beyoooooooond……………..
October 10th, 2009 at 8:42 PM
Lee~
Was that Buzz Lightyear?
October 10th, 2009 at 8:59 PM
@ Cynamen Winter
———————-
Yep. Kind of a combination of Buzz Lightyear and Star Trek……you know, when the Enterprise goes into warp drive and the music starts at the beginning of each episode. Haha.