Voices from the Flats – Thom Hartmann (Poll)
I’ve been listening a lot to Howard Dean, Bernie Sanders, Ed Schultz and Thom Hartmann about the health care bill in the Senate. After we all took a mental breather from health care discussion, the time has come to focus attention back on this pressing issue. The following is by Thom Hartmann posted here in its entirety with permission from the author.
Healthcare: First They Came for the ‘Banksters’
by Thom Hartmann
With apologies to Pastor Niemöller:
First they came for the banksters, and showered them with money and put them in the Administration in a way that was not change we could believe in.
Then they came for the military industrial complex, and sent more and more of our children to die in faraway lands that had never attacked us in a way that was not change we could believe in.
And now they’ve sold out our hope for a national health care system not run by millionaire gangsters in suits. And who is left to speak for us?
President Obama is playing the Bill Clinton game of throwing people a bone and telling them it’s steak. Perhaps he’s doing it because he thinks it’s his only choice; perhaps it’s because he’s surrounded himself with Bill Clinton advisors (and Hillary as Secretary of State); whatever the reason, while it worked for Clinton, it won’t work for Obama.
It worked for Reagan, and for the first Bush, and even worked somewhat for George W. Bush.
But it won’t work anymore. Here’s why.
From 1929 until the 1980s, most Americans were “high information voters.” They were paying attention to politics. The Republican Great Depression of 1929-1938, World War II, the Korean War, Kennedy’s election, and the War in Vietnam were all Big Events that caused Americans to pay attention. Americans of that era needed to know what was up in Washington, DC, because they felt the consequences directly.
This is why in November of 1954, Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower wrote a letter to his John Bircher brother Edgar, “Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”
The voters knew. Even as late as 1977, when George W. Bush ran for Congress from Texas on a nearly singular platform of privatizing Social Security, he lost badly. The voters knew.
Then came Reagan. He seemed so nice. He talked friendly. At the very minute – to the second – that he put his hand on the bible to be sworn in, those nasty Iranians let go the hostages they’d been holding (a kidnapping that had so humiliated the Carter administration that Carter lost the election).
America was once again a “shining city on the hill” and even though there were a few small invasions, Panama and Grenada and all, and a small recession, and a few S&L bank failures, mostly people lost interest in politics. TV was going big, home entertainment was huge, blockbuster movies were coming onto the big screen, and America was prosperous. Americans partied on cheap debt. We went to sleep. It was the beginning of the era of the “low information voter.”
During the 1980s, the right wing was working hard. Reagan stopped enforcing the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, and most of the media Americans consumed was consolidated in the hands of about a dozen very conservative-leaning corporations. Top tax rates were cut from over 70 percent to around 30 percent, so salaries at the top exploded, including those of the stars on TV…including the “news” stars.
The newly-rich TV news people began to hang out with the becoming-fabulously-rich business people, never again criticizing them because they now worked and played together and were members of the same clubs and their kids went to the same best schools. Lifestyles Of The Rich And Famous became our new religion, “greed is good” our new mantra.
Conservatives began a war on textbooks, stripping from them references to the labor movement, so that anybody who went to middle school or high school during or after the mid-1980s can’t today tell you why phrases like “Pullman Porter” or “Haymarket Square” or “Great Flint Sit Down” have any meaning.
Reagan, and then Clinton, serially deregulated the media so it came into fewer hands still, while right-wing voices exploded across the landscape. By the mid 1990s there was virtually no corner of America, not even the smallest town, where a person couldn’t hear Rush Limbaugh. After Rupert Murdoch lost $100 million a year for a half-decade, finally around Y2K Sean Hannity and Fox News began to turn a profit and became equally ubiquitous. They all made sure that voters were “low information” or “wrong information.” The labor sections of the newspapers had vanished; NPR and 60 Minutes no longer did corporate-expose investigative reporting.
Reagan used our collective somnambulance to cut taxes for his rich buddies and throw trillions their way in defense contracts. George HW did more of the same, albeit without the elegance of Reagan. Bill Clinton smiled nice and raised taxes a few tiny points – from 33 to 36 percent on the most wealthy – and just that was enough to balance the budget, and during all those years it seemed like peace and prosperity were here. Politically, people stayed asleep.
The attacks of 9/11 woke a lot of Americans up, but they didn’t know what to believe. Retired generals taking million-dollar payoffs from defense contractors were wall-to-wall on the corporate news, telling us we needed more wars and more contractors and more military toys. The two dissenting voices – Bill Maher and Phil Donahue – were immediately silenced. Keep the people asleep. Other than a few old lefties from the 60s who showed up for anti-Iraq-war protests, it mostly worked.
Then came Barack Obama. People were sick of Bush, and Obama’s campaign for the presidency reminded the oldsters of what it meant to be politically active, while it taught the same lesson to the first generation to really involve itself in politics since the Vietnam War. Weeks before the election, the Bush crew had to admit that the phony-baloney Reaganonics games played by Reagan/Bush/Clinton/Bush while we were all asleep were collapsing. The economy was about to disintegrate. A wave of foreclosures, followed almost immediately by layoffs, swept the land.
People woke up, just like they had in 1929. They began to pay attention. And they had more than just Limbaugh and Fox to learn from; this new thing called the internet proliferated information without corporate control; Air America was birthed and liberal talk radio is now heard coast-to-coast; MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann caught fire (followed by Rachel Maddow); and even the normally cynical and innocuous Jack Cafferty at CNN began to go off on screeds worthy of the movie “Network.”
The Great Depression of 2008 – or what was billed as such – and the election of an African American president who used a ground-up instead of a top-down campaign caused high information voters to emerge again for the first time in 30 years.
Many, of course, were high with the wrong information. They showed up at tea parties and Palin rallies. But their passion is real, and their grievances are mostly legitimate. Thirty years of Reaganomics/Clintonomics has destroyed the labor movement, hollowed out our industrial sector, put us on a permanent war footing, wiped out the equity of the middle class, and created an entire generation of college-loan-indentured-servants. Who are now fully awake and seriously pissed.
We slept while Clinton’s boys Robert Rubin and Larry Summers and the whole gang, Republicans and Democrats together, signed us up for NAFTA and GATT; created the WTO; moved our jobs to China; sold off our airwaves; and “financialized” our economy (fully a quarter of all corporate profits in 2007 were from the “financial services industry” – an “industry” that creates nothing whatever that can be used or eaten or has any other real-wealth value). We slept through the explosion of the private prison industry and the wars in the Balkans (who knows where Kosovo is, anyway?). Seinfeld was far more interesting.
But now both the Vietnam oldsters and the Hip Hop youngsters are awake. Even the Reagan generation is awakening, but confused, as they’ve grown up on Limbaugh and Fox, and didn’t learn much in school about politics after Reagan’s guys stripped most classes of in-depth civics requirements. (It’s interesting – when Michael Medved and I debated in Chicago last year in front of 1000 people, 500 tickets sold by each of our radio stations, my side of the room was mostly people over 50 or under 30. His side of the room was almost entirely 30- and 40-somethings.)
And that’s why Obama is heading for a disaster.
He’s betting that he can do like Bill Clinton did to us with NAFTA and the World Trade Organization – hand us a turd and tell us it’s gonna blossom beautifully if we’ll just wait a year or three or five. Rahm’s betting that if he can “deliver health care reform” – even if the fundamental system of gangster corporations standing between us and our doctors while skimming 40 percent off the top for their mansions and private jets is intact – we’ll be all excited at his “victory” and elect more Democrats in 2010 and reelect Obama in 2012.
Ditto for cosmetic repairs of the banks, which is really just trickle-down Reaganomics on steroids. Rahm and his DLC buddies truly believe that this “change” brought to us by Bush’s man Tim Geithner or Clinton’s man Larry Summers is something we’ll “believe in.”
We don’t.
We oldsters of the Vietnam era, and the youngsters coming up who see how college loan banksters are screwing them as badly as their Clinton-era parents were screwed by the mortgage scammers, are all now fully awake.
President Obama, sir: Meet what is in large part your own creation – the High Information Voters of 2009/2010.
We’re awake, we’re mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it any more. Natalie Portman to Matt Taibbi to Arianna Huffington to Bill Moyers represent the span of our four awakened generations; generations who have figured out how the game is played. And don’t like it.
First Obama continued Bush’s policy of giving the banksters money, and we protested feebly.
Then he expanded Bush’s wars, and we protested more loudly.
Now he’s going to force us to give trillions to the gangsters who run the “health insurance” companies (while they promise to behave nicely in return) and thinks we’re going to go along with it and it’ll get him re-elected.
He’s wrong.
Please, President Obama, step up and lead. We’d like some that “change we can believe in” that’s actually the real thing.
Kill the bill.
Thom Hartmann (thom at thomhartmann.com) is a Project Censored Award-winning New York Times best-selling author, and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk program The Thom Hartmann Show. www.thomhartmann.com His most recent books are “The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight,” “Unequal Protection: The Rise of Corporate Dominance and the Theft of Human Rights,” “We The People: A Call To Take Back America,” “What Would Jefferson Do?,” “Screwed: The Undeclared War Against the Middle Class and What We Can Do About It,” and “Cracking The Code: The Art and Science of Political Persuasion.” His newest book is Threshold: The Crisis of Western Culture.
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What do you think of the current Senate Health Care Bill?
- Kill the bill! (76%, 424 Votes)
- Save the bill! (24%, 135 Votes)
Total Voters: 559
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The Bill must live.
Rather than bailing, what must happen is for Democrats to grow a spine. Stand up for what is right rather than giving the Republicans yet another opportunity to fabricate yet another false instance of where Democrats cut’n'run. Stand up for what is right. Stand up for what is needed. Stand up for full healthcare reform.
And take Lieberman’s leadership posts away until he earns the right to have them.
Use appropriations for a simple majority, or kill the filibuster. Those would work too. :0) AKM
A very good if rather uncomfortable read. Is he suggesting that they kill the bill and start afresh?
I have to agree that the existing Senate bill should be killed. Dems need to regroup and President Obama needs to push the envelope on this one. I once worked for a wise man who had a well-worn note over his desk that said: “If you cut too many corners, you end up going in circles”. The Dems have cut too many corners on this one. Take the power away from Joe Liberman. He’s done nothing to deserve it. Shame the Rethugs for their “arrogance of NO” Tear down, rebuild. Get it right. Of the people, for the people, by the people!
I knew my expectations were high, that’s why this whole health care debacle is is so grating on my spirit. It didn’t have to be this way.. that Lieberman controls the dem agenda. I don’t know how this whole chapter will play out but I’m not particularly encouraged at the moment.
As Thom Hartman accurately observes, we political junkies now have the internet with which to monitor, discuss, plan strategy, fact-check, and raise funds for our causes. We have unprecedented access to information so any politician who tries to play us for fools is making a BIG mistake.
From what I understand, the only parts of this bill that would have had teeth and kept the insurance companies in line were a strong public option and/or Medicare buy-in. With these provisions stripped, especially with the mandate remaining in, the bill seems to be nothing more than a huge giveaway to the insurance companies. I haven’t ever completely trusted Obama’s pretty words, and the more time that goes by, the more it seems my cynicism was justified. A shame really, when so many people were counting on him to bring about real change. Sadly, it’s just more of the same.
Hard to say, it’s a complicated issue. I guess it comes down to pick your expert and go with them. The media has been quite uninformative and mostly beating the hysteria drum one way or the other. The most eloquent voice I’ve heard in favor of this bill was Ezra Klein on Charlie Rose last night. It’s impossible for me to go along with a Republican bloc on anything. And can you imagine the crowing if this bill is defeated?
I agree with Dr Dean, kill the bill. If they have to start over to get it right, then by god, do it.
I’ve written to both my senators urging them to call Lieberman out, reinstate the Medicare buy-in option or better yet, get the public option back on the table.
I’m sorely disappointed in President Obama on this issue (among others), this is NOT what I voted for last year.
If this bill dies–that’s it. Affordable health care in this country will NEVER
have a chance. No — the bill shouldn’t die–it should get teeth. Obama and the Dems indeed need to step up and grow a backbone, not back down. I don’t understand the hesitancy.
But Nate Silver has an interesting take on this kill the bill hysteria.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/
Kill the bill in the name of righteousness and give the right wing a complete victory. Years – decades – will pass, before serious health care reform can be brought up again.
Yes, this bill is seriously weakened and flawed and Joe Lieberman has proven himself to be all ego and no conscience – but pass this bill, and then keep working to improve it.
Don’t take pride in your intelligence and then act like a petty, small-minded, dummy just because you can’t force 60 members of the Senate to do what is best.
Thank you for the article and this topic. I’ve felt sick to my stomach watching the gutting of health insurance reform.
After all the insurance industry and political lies and drama, the majority of the public still want the public option and Medicare buy-ins. We are being ignored. It’s painful to say that President Obama wasn’t telling the truth in the recent Oprah interview when he said the proposed bill would provide health insurance for all. Instead of offering health insurance options and covering all Americans, they are potentially creating millions of criminals.
The bill as it stands now is a disaster. If they get rid of the mandate and the loophole allowing an undefined yearly cap on benefits, it might be a start.
If the mandate doesn’t come out, the bill needs to die.
Passing the bill without the public option or expanded Medicare might do a strange thing of uniting Progressives and tea-baggers to fight the legislation.
I did agree at first kill the bill because we are not getting near what we wanted. The truth is this will provide insurance for people with incomes under $80,000, that helps the majority that can’t afford it. If we start over it still won’t pass and we are stuck in the same place as now. What we really need to do is make sure that we get even more “real Decorates” elected and the bill can be revised later. I wish we could get rid of Lie berman, and others like him now, but he’s not up for reelection until 2012. It’s so maddening that they could care less about people and only their pocketbook. But we can’t do anything about it, I just pray karma catches up with them sooner than later, but if not in this life the next. Just because something is the moral thing to do we have no control to make them do it. Our trouble is we want what’s right and vengeance on the evil doers but we can’t always get what we want.
If Democrats in congress accept a bill that forces people to buy private insurance under penalty of a fine, and write checks to giant health insurance corporations, tell me one reason why Democrats will come out and vote in 2010? This is exactly what we DON’T want. I’m all for compromise, but at some point you become what you hate and you have to take a stand.
I don’t believe we’ll have to wait a generation for this to be revisited again. This is a CRISIS and if reform fails, it needs to fail because of Republicans, not because we sold the store.
And just WAIT for the teabaggers and right wing radio to get hold of it.
Bill of Wasilla – I agree with you except the mandate must go! Also, too, the nasty loophole.
I am one of those hugely pissed off Vietnam era oldsters that Mr. Hartmann mentioned in his piece. Between military and federal service I have served my country for almost 20 years.
I am just cynical enough to not be surprised that it looks like they effed us over again. And I have absolutely zero faith that this “health care reform” will wind up being anything more than a large-ish turd sandwich. The final product will have more (loop)holes in it that benefit the insurance industry than aged swiss.
Our government has become so hijacked by the ulta wealthy and corporate special interests that it is no longer able function as intended (i.e. for the benefit of the citizenry). It’s gotten so bad now that many politicians in Washington don’t even put much effort into the disguising the fact that they are, basically, nothing more than shills and defacto lobbyists for their main financial contributors and overlords, corporate America. And the crap is just going to stay the same until such time as everyone wakes up, screams “ENOUGH” and forces the system to change. I don’t see that happening in what’s left of my lifetime.
As for me, I’m not so much pissed off as sick at heart and disgusted with where we’ve allowed things to go. And where we allow things to remain. I look back at the years of my life spent in government service with a profound sense of futility and time wasted where I could have been doing something more meaningful.
The righties can say to me as they said to the war protestors in the ’60′s, “America, love it or leave it!”. Exactly. I just discovered I speak Canadian fairly well and Canada has a shortage of technical education teachers. My son and his wife (both engineers) will be joining us.
Good luck with that whole health care reform thingy. I hope it works out.
Beggars can’t be choosers
We’re getting a bone (yummy!) instead of a steak simply because we never had 60 votes. This is a bipartisan bill: Lieberman is a fraud, but at least he’s slightly more progressive than Olympia Snowe.
Are we going to decide that something better than the status quo isn’t good enough, and wait an indefinite number of years hoping to round up a few more Ben Nelsons?
Save the bill for the reform it includes and build on it another day. Pragmatism.
An expansion on my thoughts here: http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/rockefeller-rips-dean-nonsense-irresponsible-stunning-wrong/
Thanks for posting this. Kill the bill. I agree with the author and others. This isn’t anywhere close to what we want. If this passes, we are worse off than getting nothing. Single-payer is the best answer. The system is broken. We got to get back to what the people want and not what the corporations want.
Kill the bill. I do not agree with not being allowed a choice while being mandated to have insurance. This is nothing but a huge give away to the health care industry. John Dean on Hardball said that the health care providers under this bill will be able to charge up to 300% more if you are elderly or have a pre-existing condition. This isn’t change.
The Dems need to put the public option and Medicare potion of the bill back in and call for a vote. At least the american people would be able to see who the obstructionist are. The only reason they wont is to protect Obama’s arse. I lay the problem of this whole fiasco at his feet for not being a leader in the process.
And while I’m on my rant….. What is up with the Dems voting against the drug reimportation Bill. We are being totally screwed and not even being offered vasoline.
Well, I said kill the bill, but I’m not sure that’s what I really want either. Whatever happens, they need to get rid of Lieberman. He’s thoroughly enjoying having power over everyone, and it has to stop. Honestly, why isn’t he caucasing with the repubs – he supports everything they want and nothing that the democrat want. I know that leaves them without the 60 votes, but they don’t have 60 anyway. They are going to have to come up with another way to get the thing passed, because every time they concede to get Lieberman with them, he comes up with something else.
I am so sick of everything that has been done to that bill in the last weeks that I can hardly stand it. All the democrats need to grow some and stand up to the bullies who are the freakin’ minority, for pete’ sake. Why are they letting the repbubs have so much control.
The only reason I hesitated about the “kill the bill” option is that the right wingnuts will be celebrating and it will strengthen their resolve to vote against everything.
It’s a no-win situation where we now find ourselves.
Anything less than a public option, leaves Obama looking like the kid that just had his lunch money taken by the play ground bully. And the bully will be back tomorrow putting him in his place over, and over. I’d think if the President had people to “call out” as he said he would. Then the time to start calling people out is now.
Old saying, Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
The mandate should have been removed the same time as universal health care went down the tubes. The logic for the one, the mandate, was justified by the other, universal health care.
To require payments, in advance to a for profit company for services that may not be needed and may be denied if needed is a travesty. It is government enforced robbery.
It must go, and any bill with has that kind of rip off in it should die a quick death.
If the spineless Dims voted down a bill with that type of provision they would still come out ahead PR wise simply by claiming that such a requirement is abhorrent and they voted to protect the public.
Any effort to tax payroll health care deductions should also fall. How can money that I never access be taxed? It is no benefit to me until I become ill or injured, at that point it becomes a benefit, only if the insurance company pays out. However, then it becomes a tax on illness. And the longer and sicker you are the more tax you pay?
As I understand this bill will mandate millions of new (willing and unwilling) customers for the insurance companies who will have nothing to keep them from increasing prices as they have – no cap on premiums. Meanwhile, the bankruptcies resulting from medical expenses will skyrocket. Any solution to subsidize the cost for the poor will be but a small fraction of those who need it. None of this may go into effect for years anyway.
This sounds like a real scam. I guess no one is mad enough to confront enmasse people like Lieberman, Nelson, et al. Barack Obama is almost irrelevant in this discussion except to say “why can’t we all get along”
Here’s an article making a case that the mandate is necessary to control costs.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021493.php
The concept of mandated insurance still disturbs me as I think many will not be able to afford either insurance or the penalty and I don’t think enough is being done to control medical or insurance costs. Guess I’ve got an internal struggle going between my libertarian and progressive parts.
I also hate the thought of federal subsidies paying private insurers who will turn around and pay lobbyists to continue their fight against really affordable healthcare.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 wasn’t great, didn’t stop discrimination in its tracks, but I’d like to think its passage showed intent and a significant change in direction for this country. IMHO the health bill reflects a similar mood of the electorate; confused, dissatisfied, but it’s a start and can be improved upon over time.
I so agree, Seagull!
I have to agree, don’t kill it. This is the first time that I can remember that it’s gotten this far along. Killing it will give the right wing the power they need to make the spineless left cower in fear.
It needs teeth & that can be put in, afterward, so that Lieberman can’t do anything about it.
Atrios said the other day ( “I Told People To STFU: Obviously not everyone reads all of my brilliant words, but I did tell people that if they actually liked a Medicare buy-in compromise they shouldn’t say so…” )
that if something good is there, don’t mention it. Don’t let Lieberman know about it, because he’ll sink it. He was proven right.
Now that Lieberman has shown his true colors, drum him out of everything he’s involved in & let him have no power.
Then work on improving a bad bill.
I think Howard Dean is right. The whole health care reform bill as it currently has been eviscerated should be trashcanned.
I’d rather let the Republicans be responsible for the insurance companies making good on their threat to jack up premiums regardless, whether the status quo continues or whether some form of health care insurance reform was enacted.
Did anyone go to fivethirtyeight.com?? Nate Silver (as usual) analyzes it to the max, and says we are bat*t crazy to oppose it.
After you read this entry, go to the front page of his blog, where he has more.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-crazy-to.html
A law of physics states: a body in motion remains in motion
unless acted upon by outside forces. President Reagan put
most of the bodies in motion that resulted in today’s economic collapses. The 1984 SMMEA act removed the legal impediments to securitize mortgages. The Gam-St Germain act allowed for adjustable mortgages. These two bodies in motion created the sub-prime mortgage crisis. Reagan cut state’s federal funds from 22% of their budget to 6% contributing to the decline of the States; this drastically cut programs that benefited the poor and working classes. He reduced the top tax rate from 70% to 28%; Causing a redistribution of the countries wealth, leading to the recession and the decline of the middle class. Reagan’s “trickle down theory” stated that tax reduction of the rich would lead to more money for the middle class; Instead the money trickled down to the stock portfolios of the wealthiest Americans ; in keeping with his intent to benefit the rich Reagan Proposed reducing capital gains taxes. To be fair Reagan was being Directed, all the conservative power brokers needed was a B actor; those old enough may remember that John Wayne was originally cast for the part. The trickle down tax cuts further re disturbed the wealth causing the middle class to depend more on credit. This lack of savings lead too a credit bubble. Reagan and Bush have been fiscal failures. History says they were proponents of large expensive government. Their Tax initiatives Were failures, ruining the American dream , exploiting the middle Class for the benefit of the rich. Putting these policies in motion have decimated our economy; for twenty eight years these failed policies Have been in motion. President Obama is trying to change the momentum of these calamitous policies. The obstructionists who like to belie Reagan and Bush accomplishments will continue to revise history with blatant lies and misinformation.
I don’t think the teeth will be put in the bill later. When they passed Medicare, they left it at 65 and planned to take it down later. Forty-four years later, niothing has changed, except that the Republicans, of which not one voted for the bill, have weakened the bill.
We are screwed. We have government for the corporation, by the corporation, and of the corporation. That equals facism. The corporations will quite happily buy either party. They have had the Republicans for a long time; they are making huge inroads into the Democrats today.
I can see both sides of kill or not kill, but this is a terrible bill, and I don’t think it will get better. I hope I’m wrong.
I listen to Thom online every day. He has been for months trying not to come to this conclusion. He thinks Obama got the bill he wanted. I think so, too.
Pass a few of the amendments, close the medicare loopholes, begin the “core foundation” for reform, kill the rest of it. Hindsight is always 20/20 – today went back to look at the health care reforms the Clinton Admin. worked on…. years wasted and trillions of dollars.,… we are still fighting the same battle.
Also, look up corpocracy or corporatocracy — pretty sure we can honestly say we no longer have a democracy.
Excellent piece Mr Hartmann, well said. I was asleep till Jr Bush decided to invade Iraq, got called a traitor for even asking about proof.
H
I did a Mudflats no-no and posted 2 links. I’ll try again.
I recommend you read Nate Silver’s fivethirtyeight dot com. The guy exhaustively researches his points, and describes how he got there coherently. His post from yesterday is below – you’ll read the title in the link.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-batshit-crazy-to.html
Then go to his front page where he has written more.
I understand completely the desire to bail on this bill, since what we really want isn’t in it, but I do think we should read more.
Love,
SJP
One word reconciliation
We will never get back to this bill to improve it in our lifetime. If this bill is passed there will be a Rethuglican landslide in 2010 and 2012. Vote on the bill with the option in. At least we did our best and that is all I can ask of our party. I would rather lose on principal than live with a bad bill.
The one thing the Rethugs do right is hold their base and caucus together.We have completely disillusioned the young people who voted in the last election.
Why can’t the Dems realize we gave the president a mandate to change?
I for one will be changing my registration to Independent. The party will need to earn my vote in the future. They will not be able to take it for granted.
I wonder if AKM or other AK mudpups know Riki Ott and Lisa Marie Jacobs, Alaskans who organized a group, Ultimate Civics, to fight corporate-driven politics. Perhaps Riki and Lisa Marie are mudpups.
http://ultimatecivics.com/about.php
They have a related facebook page – One Million Strong for the Separation of Corporation and State – but only about 5500 members so far.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=43811311612#/group.php?v=info&gid=43811311612
It seems like the only hope for democracy in the long run is to get corporate money out of politics.
We should kill the bill, and go for nothing less than Universal Single Payer.
Why should we settle for less than what the citizens of other advanced nations enjoy?
The Japanese have the best Universal Health Care System in the world, and pay only 8% of GDP. They have some challenges, but overall, its the best coverage for the least % of GDP among the G8 countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan
Wash Post has a critique of the Kokumin Kenko Hoken and Shakai Hoken systems here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/06/AR2009090601630.html
I lived in Japan from 1990 through 2005 and was shocked when I returned to the USA. I can tell you first-hand the Japanese system is better, and saved my childrens’s lives more than once without severely draining my finances.
I paid less than $20 out of pocket for an MRI and less than $500/month in premiums for 90% coverage on everything chargeable. My co-pay for a regular visit was $8 and my annual complete -very complete- checkup was $35.
Nobody is ever denied treatment and there is little waiting on line. The care is excellent.
Universal is the way to go, we can learn from the problems the Japanese face and do it even better.
If you all had my experience with the Japanese system you would not stand for this, Joe Lieberman and the GOP are murduring people with their stall tactics. Kill the bill, and mandate a true Progressive Agenda.
I really want people to see this post, so I’m going to try again (3rd try) so…..when you see my old repeated posts show up – forgive me.
Nate Silver at five thirty eight dot com did a very thorough (as usual) look at the bill yesterday. He has added a new post today. It’s worth the look.
NOW I figured out why my post didn’t post! It’s the title of the link from 538 darn it. So you will need to fill in the missing letters represented by **** in your address bar. You know the word.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/why-progressives-are-bat****-crazy-to.html
Don’t like the save or kill option. Keep plugging away for health care for all. Speak up for it at every opportunity. No mandates without public options.
I agree that this bill isn’t what many of us dreamed of but do we really think that we’ve got a shot at health care reform if this gets tossed? Really?
I’m trying to think of any major piece of legislation that got dumped and was ever approached again in any timely way. I’ve been awake and aware and paying attention (yes, even before the internet tubes) since the early 80′s and I can’t think of one.
And with all due respect (and I truly do have it!) for Mr. Hartmann, voters may have more outlets to complain but I don’t think there really is that much more enlightenment about the nuance of either a piece of legislation or of the political process than there has been. I’ve been on HuffPo a lot over the last couple of months and people are really talented at one line “give me liberty or give me death” sentiments but a little short on actual comprehension of how this all works.
For those who say kill it and rebirth it with a progressive agenda — my question to you is, how? With the current Senate, we’d be right back where we are right now again if by some miracle a second bill made it to the floor. And frankly, if the Democrats don’t get a couple of wins under their belts and can move on with focus to the economy, green energy, etc. there aren’t going to be a lot of Democratic wins in 2010 and our margin will get smaller.
Sometimes (okay, well, often!) politics is a slow, ugly, inch by inch, brutal process of getting to what’s right. There are a lot of things wrong with this bill, but there are also a lot of things that are right with it. Let’s get the baby sitting in the bathtub before we start tossing anything out.
Well, I trust Howard Dean. Kill it.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392
Oooh, ooh, I’m going to follow up with a question. I’ve asked it several times on HP and never gotten an answer.
Actually, it’s two questions:
My understanding is that reconciliation was created specifically for financial legislation. How is it that health care can fall under that rubric, and even if we want the results, do the ends of further twisting the intent of a law (after all of the Bush years of doing so) to get what we want?
Okay, three questions…(sorry!)
My understanding also is that any legislation that passes by reconciliation can get reversed in 10 years if it has any negative impact on the federal deficit. Do we really think that the Republicans won’t be falling over themselves to figure out how to do this to undo any progress? It wouldn’t be that hard to twist numbers if you wanted to take a piece of legislation out.
Thanks — I’m hoping that a Mudpuppy or two can help with this — I know that this is, truly, a high-information group!
Thanks,
Leigh
If President Obama doesn’t get a bill he doesn’t get a bill. As much as I hoped he could, for one or another reason he couldn’t get significant change through our bought and paid for congress.
Do not make me, or my children or my friends and neighbors buy insurance from companies that have no restriction on what they charge. Do not settle for a bill that does nothing to provide health care for people. Health Insurance is not equal to Health Care.
That our country has a Health Care Industry makes me sick. Health Care should not be a for-profit industry. Nothing associated with Health Care should be bought and sold on the stock market because that means the companies involved in such endeavors care primarily for their profits, not people.
Is there nothing left in this country worth doing that doesn’t rake in profits? Yes, pay for services. Yes, encourage wellness. Yes, engage in research. But not because you can get a patent and push a drug all day on television that has worse side effects than the condition it purports to ameliorate!
Sorry, a bad bill is worse than no bill. Kill the bill.
Mudpuppy Wannabe You asked the questions I had. I will say though if we don’t get a bill threw the senate now we never will.Remember after the senate it has to come together with the house side. And that may be where we can get changes made??? I have no idea what happens after a bill passes the senate other than the house bill and the senate bill have to come together. But who votes on it once they get together?
Kill this bill. If they pass anything with a mandate to pay those #$@)^^*&$@! criminals our hard earned money this country is going to come apart. I no longer support this FASCIST government.
jojobo1, thanks!
I do think that there is some room in the House negotiations to get some things shaken out further.
Just was reading: http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/15/the-house-prepares-to-dig-in/
A snippet:
“Since adopting their version of the health care bill last month, House Democrats have been working quietly with the White House in an early effort to resolve differences between their measure and the expected Senate bill.
If Senate Democrats can unite and pass their version, the fate of the legislation will quickly shift into the hands of House liberals, led by the speaker, Nancy Pelosi of California. And some of those liberals are spoiling for a fight…”
To me, this is another reason why the Senate shouldn’t kill this bill — it’s not in its final form yet. This would go to the Conference Committee, which then brings what they’ve hammered out together back to the Senate and the House, where it must be approved by both.
http://www.votesmart.org/resource_govt101_02.php
Thanks, Mr. Hartmann, for all the context in that post and to AKM for cross-posting it here. I’m not sure what I think about the best strategy–kill or save– but I do know that I am deeply disappointed, and my anger and frustration now extends beyond the insurance companies and the profit-off-care mongers and my disgust extends to our own representatives in Congress– yes, ALL of them–who couldn’t be trusted to do the right thing, after one of the most obvious electoral mandates on this subject in a generation.
Seems they’ve all forgotten how the Signers of the Declaration of Independence conducted themselves– pledging to each other their Lives, their Fortunes, and their sacred Honor. And those gentlemen didn’t let some delegate from the colony of Connecticut stand in their way, either.
I guess *our* lives, *our* fortunes, and *our* sacred honor as citizens who deserve respect from our elected officials is of no matter to the Congress, as evidence by their action, nor to the WH, as evidenced by the lack thereof.
Oh, and one more thing– we didn’t sit through all that teabagger townhall bullying for months and go out and support this bill out there in the grassroots only to get smacked in the collective face by Lieberman.
OK, rant over. For now. Grrrr.
So many points of view and so much passion, this is truly a big issue one must admit.
But is it really about Obama?
I think not, I think it is about the systemic failure that has allowed the USA to decay to the point it has. Can Obama undo the bias of the corporate controlled media? I think not, he has to contend with their incessant belittlement. Let us face facts people, he is confronted with massive and totallly unscrupulous resistance.
What I see as the issue here is not him, but us. He is only doing the best he can while trying to maintain the long view of what might be accomplished if he can stay in the so called seatof power for a full eight years.
We are at the core of that failure if we do not remake our country in the next decade, we are the ones responsible for enforcing not just the rule of law but the rule of reason.
Our foes are clever and adept and have enormous resources. They can be defeated, but not without sacrifice and dedication. Abandoning ship is not dedication in my book.
Fight the nay sayers, do not fight obama, he is only trying to navigate the ship of state among the many icebergs he has inherited.
Kru at 49 I completely agree. It is not Obama’s function to write the law rather once Congress has written the law, his signature acknowledges that the Presidential/Administrative branch of government will put the new law into effect. I’m old enough to have had Civics in high school. It is a shame that it is now gone with the wind of conservatism.
Electing Obama was only the first step in righting the ship of state. He also needs a Congress that can write and pass good legislation. While 2008 was a step in the correct direction there is still much work to be done, especially in the Senate. With 6 years terms it may take a cycle or two to really clean house of the corporatists.
I voted to kill the bill but after reading so many comments I have changed my mind. A bill needs to get passed by the Senate which then goes for reconciliation with the House bill. This will be a whole, full bodied round of negotiation. At that point, it’s time for the really heavy guns to come out on anyone who is not on board.
One of the things I recall from some program when Ted Kennedy passed was hearing that his biggest regret was killing a health care bill because it wasn’t everything they wanted. In later years, he realized that it could have been a foundation to build upon. I think we should listen to that advice from the Lion of the Senate.
So in the meantime, let’s all look to places we can put our efforts to elect better Senators in 2010 and beyond. Let’s also keep reminding Obama what we elected him to do while reminding him that we have his back. We can be just a noisy as the corporate lobbyists. We also needs to keep reminding one another to push forward and not give up and let teabaggers reign.
I just watched Olberman’s rant to kill the bill… and, despite what I said in my earlier comment, I found myself agreeing with everything that he said. The bill has already been killed. Something else has taken its place. I’m not 100 percent ready to say kill the bill, not after all the effort I have made, all the letters that I have written, but…
I am close to the point.
It might be the thing to do.
But, if it is killed, I think that is it for now. Despite the talk of starting anew and going for reconciliation, there will be no reconciliation. The right will proclaim victory and with 2010 coming up, this will not come up again.
Health care reform will just flat out be dead.
But it will be capitulating, timid, Democrats who will be even more responsible then obstructionist, fear-mongering, lying… yes, lying… Republicans who will be to blame.
And it will be dead. It won’t come back anytime soon.
>Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.
There. Is. No. Baby.
This is going this way because it’s how Obama wants to play it. He never wanted a public option, he wants reelection in 2012, with the help of a grateful insurance industry. Sad, but true.
Except Mr Hartmann is right: Mr. Obama has made a gross miscalculation. The electorate that carried him to victory won’t be satisfied with crumbs. He needs to be schooled, well and soon, so that the rest of the promised agenda is delivered, or attempted, IN GOOD FAITH—instead of this phony pantomime of “change.”
Great discussion on this thread.
Just thought I’d throw that out there.
Markos at Daily Kos answers Nate Silver’s “20 Questions” pretty well.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/16/815402/-20-answers
Glen Greenwald went over this very same subject today over at Salon.com. Greenwald’s piece is worth a read:
White House as helpless victim on healthcare
I have poured over the sites trying to decide whether or not to kill this bill. I didn’t vote in the poll and I’m sorry to say, I didn’t read all of the comments here. But I’m mad as hell and I have to speak out about this bill.
This bill is not what we wanted. We need a public option, a medicare buy-in for those younger than 65 and protection from the mandatory purchase of insurance. People without jobs don’t have money to buy-in. They just want health care.
This is the insurance company’s dream bill and I will not support it in its current state. It’s a disaster.
But I know things that Americans may not know. I married a UK citizen whose taxes covered their health care and never a bill, never a copay (except for drugs) and never a worry about going bankrupt. No one in the UK loses their home or life savings when they get sick.
My husband had a motorcycle accident and spent a week in the hospital (many years ago) and never once worried about the costs. He never had to worry about selecting the ‘right’ doctor or worrying about what time of day he might need care. He never ever had to fight for the expense of his care. He just cannot fathom how Americans have been screwed for YEARS by the insurance companies. He cannot fathom the control of the lobbyists in this country.
We have to make our voices heard and end this mafia control of our health care system. It is broken and I’m not going to sit back and watch my fellow Americans die or not get treated because they fear losing their home or their life savings over health care. Don’t even ask me about illegal immigrants because my answer will be, they are humans and Jesus didn’t ask for their citizenship papers when he healed the sick.
My girlfriend in Phoenix works for a doctor and doesn’t have health care. That is just wrong on all fronts and we must get a bill that is worthy of the President’s signature. Until we do, I am going to be fitful and angry and will challenge anyone that supports the mafia insurance companies.
Stop this madness now and start with a bill that will cover every human in this country, no matter their status, their station in life or their ability to pay. Health care is not negotiable; it’s a right of all citizens to be treated for their issues because we’re all humans. We age, we get sick and we need health care. As Keith said last night, First do no harm. We must demand that they present a bill worthy of a signature.
Thanks for reading.
/rant over.
I must say, I am torn; to kill or not to kill.
Being one of those people on the edge of bankruptcy and ruined credit standing because of healthcare bills (and I have insurance) I had high hopes on getting a Bill passed that would actually HELP the American People.
The Bill currently on the Senate floor actually makes me want to cry. I am so disillusioned by what I see happening to our hopes that something resembling CHANGE for the benefit of the PEOPLE.
What happened to the cap on premiums and out of pocket expense?
What happened to the ban on pre-existing conditions?
What happened to the affordable public option?
I could go on and on and on but we all see what happened to the TEETH in this Bill. They were not ‘pulled’, they were literally KNOCKED OUT and time to save them is running out. All that is left are gaping holes that the will be filled with more $$$ going to the insurance companies.
This is not what WE wanted and the fact that our POTUS can stand there and state it has EVERYTHING he outlined is just another punch in the face of the American People.
http://thefastertimes.com/prowrestling/2009/12/17/democrats-its-time-to-drive-the-family-truckster-off-the-lot/
Perfect analogy. You have to see the picture. Plus, it lists the “benefits.”
I’m so depressed.
This is a very hard choice for me, since I am a strong advocate of Single Payer Healthcare, but the fact remains, we have to start somewhere, even if it is a very small crack in the door. Maybe later maybe we can get out foot in the door and keep pushing it open until it is all the way to Single Payer. I know that sounds like a pipe dream now, but we can’t just give up. If Obama loses ALL on this, we have all lost. We just can;’t let that happen, so I vote to keep the bill – any bill.
Kill it. Strip Lieberman of his posts, get the clownish Democrats to act like they’re a team and do the job they were elected to do. Or the Democrats need to be replaced.
The Republicans are completely crooked and the Democrats are their loyal opposition.
The politicians need to be replaced. Until we the people rid ourselves of these liars and thieves, we have no reason to even complain. We need to raise a giant stink and be sure they understand why we are running them out of town. Only then will it be possible to keep their replacement politicians in line.
Krubozumo Nyankoye @ 51, that is one of the most eloquent pieces I’ve read about the political process for a long time. Thank you.
And I agree, AKM, this is a great conversation. Thanks to everyone. I’m mostly a lurker here, feeling a bit like a tourist, a bit like a peeping Tom (or Tomasina!) because I’m not from Alaska.
But I am hungering for a place to talk about this with people who are thoughtful as we wrestle with this process and our hopes and frustrations about politics in the US in almost 2010. There are few places where an actual conversation CAN take place online — I am exhausted by the snipey snarky one liner battles that seem to take over most places.
A couple of quotes from the movie, An American President from the brilliant monologue at the end (where he does decide to scrap a bill but that’s fiction!)
:
“America isn’t easy. America is advanced citizenship. You’ve gotta want it bad, ’cause it’s gonna put up a fight.”
“We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who’s to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections.”
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechtheamericanpresident.html
Kill The Bill.
I can’t get it out of my head,that was the slogan of the teabaggers.
That was their last protest they were going to invade the Senate and pretend to die.
That was their slogan Kill The Bill.
Sorry, I associate that saying with the teabaggers.
The threshold of health care reform must be crossed and in the next few days. This effort was started by Franklin Roosevelt when I was less than one. I hope the bride will not wiggle loose in the last few steps.