Window Smashed at Alaska Democratic Party Headquarters in Anchorage (VIDEO Updates)
This weekend, the headquarters of the Alaska Democratic Party was vandalized. A window was smashed. I drove down to the building to see for myself what had happened. The press was there – a TV crew from KTVA, reporters from the Daily News, photographers. I was able to grab a minute with Democratic Party Chair Patti Higgins to talk about what had happened.
Recently a right wing blogger, and former leader of the Alabama Constitutional Militia posted on a blog Friday, specifically advocating the breaking of glass. Anyone who has studied World War II cannot help but find parallels to “Kristallnacht” – The Night of Broken Glass. On that night, there was far more damage than broken glass – more than 200 synagogues were destroyed, and there were tens of thousands of arrests of Jews. More than 90 were murdered. Obviously the acts of vandalism we have seen across the country, and now in Anchorage, have not reached anything close to these proportions, but the rhetoric is flying and glass is being broken.
“To all modern Sons of Liberty: THIS is your time. Break their windows. Break them NOW.”
These were the words of Mike Vanderboegh, a 57-year-old former militiaman from Alabama, who took to his blog urging people who opposed the historic health-care reform legislation — he calls it “Nancy Pelosi’s Intolerable Act” — to throw bricks through the windows of Democratic offices nationwide.
“So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party [that they] cannot fail to hear, break their windows,” Vanderboegh wrote on the blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars. “Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM.”
Vanderboegh told The Kansas City Star that the action was meant to “get everyone’s attention.”
“What I was trying to get across was that people do not understand how on the edge of civil conflict this country is,” he said.
So just to remove all doubt about that, and illustrate the point about how easy it is to incite violence, let’s break some windows? Nice. I’m thinking that the Democratic Party ought to send this guy a bill for all these windows.
This man is responsible for the broken windows, and his blog is evidence. There is a remedy under the law, and we will see Vanderboegh in court.
These people are out of their minds.
Cowards.
Probably will help the Democrats more than hurt them.
Show’s what asses they are!
Sorry to see it come to this.
Be safe, everyone.
Kristallnacht. The Night of Broken Glass.
Chilling.
I love you, Mud Puppy friends. We need not fear, but we must speak up for those who are too young, too old, too weak, too afraid. We are not required to complete the work, but we are obliged to do whatever we can.
We couldn’t be in better company than here on our Mudflats.
My chores are done, my table is ready, and I’m waiting for the third star to appear in the sky and Pesach begins. I will be unplugged and incommunicado until three stars shine tomorrow night.
Please do not be offended when I tell you that I hold you all close to my heart in my prayers, and wrap these wings around our planet in love and peace and hope.
Tikkun Olam Shalom, dear ones.
And after you break the windows, shoot yourself in the foot (figuratively). This kind of conduct will only turn people away from the Republican party.
I’m glad the donkeys look unscathed!
Is this the same person who receives a disability check from the federal government every month?
This guy needs to be brought to Justice. Put him in jail and make him pay restitution for the damages.
I don’t see the point Vanderboegh says he is trying to make. But I sense another, more sinister one just under the surface. In fact, it is pretty obvious- and these types need to be hauled out and punished. Or we will find ourselves in a civil war.
Thanks crowwoman! No better place to be than wrapped in your wings- peace to you and your family.
Very sick people!!!!
I heard that Larry King will be talking about the tea baggers, and John McCain and Sarah Palin.
I wrote that I have watched his show for many years. Also said that I didn’t understand why the tea baggers, and Sarah Palin got so much free air time.
That she is disrespectful of the President of the United States of America.
That President Obama is the commander in chief of the military, and that we are at war, in case some people have forgotten.
I hope while interviewing his guests tonight, he will remember this.
“a chorus of cynics…they will grow louder…” are we as divided as our politics suggest?
Heal this Nation…
Yes. We Can.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsV2O4fCgjk
Yes. We Shall.
Yes. We Must.
Stay safe and let those little lights shine.
More violence on the horizon as Sarah Palin doubles down in her gun rhetoric (reported by the Associated Press):
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioGbSpdeytUZln_DmxXLf2C5-pGwD9EOI4580
I really hope that “The View” revisits this issue and that many of Palin’s starry eyed supporters see the evil that is Sarah Palin.
For anyone who doesn’t know what the Intolerable Acts were, here’s the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intolerable_Acts
It’s not entirely historically accurate, but pretty good, for anyone who doesn’t know their American/British history, it will give you a pretty good idea.
Feel those wings, thatcrowwoman, and wish blessings on your house! Tikkun Olam Shalom, indeed. These a*holes are anything but menschen.
Love, health, and peace to all my fellow mudpups!
Vanderboegh is on government disability by the way. Of course.
“Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension. He has private health insurance through his wife, who works for a company that sells forklift products. ”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032501722.html
I don’t get it. The FBI arrests conservative militia members in Michigan but nothing is done about the violent rhetoric (sedition?) this Mike Vanderboegh, a militia man from Alabama, was spewing?
Vanderboegh (living off the taxpayer dollar) should remember that ppl who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones …..
Gee, wouldn’t it be a shame if his “check got lost in the mail”?
and he lost his internet/phone connection.
Not that I would ever, ever, ever promote such a thing.
Where does he live again? Just kidding
Kristallnacht was perpetrated before I was birthed into this life in 1940, but as I learned from retrospective discussions when I was young, it involved more than synagogues. I covered the whole commercial network of jewish german citizenry. Not only were synagogues desecrated, but stores of all kinds were vandalized and looted (BONUS! RIGHT?) in a concerted effort to destroy the commerce which benefitted many… Jews and non-jews alike.
Think about it! What will the “Bonus” be for this generation of Bigots?
Both Religious and Racial? Their overall rage may at this time be somewhat unfocused, but it will “crystallize” soon enough and I dread it! ARRRGH!
Yes. I realize now that I didn’t include things other than synagogues, which I should have done. I’ll edit. Thanks. AKM
Sorry OT–but has anyone heard that the father of a Marine killed in service to his country is having to pay the court fees of Fred Phelps–the nutbag from Westboro Baptist Church? These heinous people picketed the dead Marines funeral and now Al Snyder has to pay over $16,000.00 dollars! Here’s the link if you’d like to give.
http://www.mathewsnyder.org/
This has gotten way out of hand. These people are domestic terrorists, they are not patriots. uncivil, irresponsible, intellectually and morally bankrupt. and yet not one peep from the Republicans….Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln would be pissed.
what a legacy!?!! lumping palin, teabaggers, & mccain all together as one mixed up ball of crazy…deservedly so.
We had the same thing happen two weekends ago in Tucson. Our commonality gives us strength. I don’t know how much more will have to happen before the authorities start cracking down on these hate mongers and seditionists, but we have to remember, no matter what happens, that “if we do not stand together we will assuredly hang seperately”, in the words of Ben Franklin. Peace out.
i posted about it in the open thread Leota2, but there are new developments . According to facebook it is going to the supreme court
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/group.php?v=info&gid=355406162379
Oops. Correcting the link for Legal fund for Al Snyder.
http://www.matthewsnyder.org/
Thanks twain12!
The folks on the far right don’t seem to understand they are doing us a favor. (Let’s not tell them). Civilized people aren’t going to vote for this kind of crap.
This is not CIVIL disobedience. Just when I think they are about as stupid as they could be….. Well, someone proves my point again.
Priceless.
Political violence.
“WASHINGTON — Nine members of a Michigan-based Christian militia group have been indicted on sedition and weapons charges in connection with an alleged plot to murder law enforcement officers in hopes of setting off an antigovernment uprising.
In court filings unsealed Monday, the Justice Department accused the nine people of planning to kill an unidentified law enforcement officer, then plant improvised explosive devices of a type used by insurgents in Iraq to attack the funeral procession. ”
————————————————-
Take a look at the photos of these “Christian” folks in this article. They most likely constitute Palin’s basest “base.” When these folks hear Palin’s dog-whistle, “RELOAD,” I’m fairly confident that they don’t associate it with frequenting the ballot box of their local precinct.
Palin should be deeply ashamed….and it’s to her great discredit that she’s not only NOT ashamed but she’s ramped up her speech with more taunting violent rhetoric.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/30/us/30militia.html?hp
I posted this in the open thread, but it might be appropriate here…I am SO proud of hubster for speaking out:
today hubster went to the local farm supply store to get some goat feed.
on the glass counter at the checkout, there was that disgusting “African lion in the zoo” joke prominently displayed.
Hubster flat out told the store owner that it was not a joke, it was offensive, the President deserves our respect, and hubster finished with “I’m really disappointed that you condone this sort of thing”.
Owner blamed it on his wife!!!!
but store owner apologized, took it down, tore it up and threw it away.
@justafarmer.
Your hubster rocks. Give him a ^5 for me!
Thanks AKM I read about it but it seems the anchorage police department have down played it the claimed only some medal was broken,Why they did this is beyond me as we can all see the glass is cracked.No matter the police officers political leanings they should not have outright lied about what happened.
“What I was trying to get across was that people do not understand how on the edge of civil conflict this country is,” he said.
What we do understand is how much people like you and the Tea Bagging Rabel and the Militia are exactly like the early Nazi movement. And how little the Liberal and Progressive movements are like the Nazi.
And how the deliberate misdirection of accusations that the left if Nazi-like, by the Republican Party, is being used to try to fool the left from realizing how Nazi the fr right always has been.
And guess what Baggers. The only people you are fooling are yourselves.
You don’t have to look any further than the last two days with arrests of a Milital group and with the guilty plea of a 21 year old for plotting to murder multiple people ending up with candidate Obama.
I am hugely relieved that the FBI is taking the violence prone right seriously. I was not sure that they would not side with the right with push came to shove. And frankly I am still not sure.
People like that guy need to be arrested. I wonder, with all that he has posted, if the FBI is already investigating him. I hope so. And he should give back his disability checks. What a hypocrit.
The other thing that really bothers me is how these nitwits who advocate and excuse violence keep saying it is “civil disobedience”. The main idea there was to protest in a NON-violent matter. Another thing they missed in the history class they didn’t attend.
And over at the ADN, the usual suspects are saying that the Democrats did it themselves to make the teabaggers look bad.
*weeps*
Pat, you are absolutely correct!
Civil Disobedience is non-violent and most certainly does NOT involve property damage.
Apparently these kind of people don’t have a clue about the Constitution, US history or even basic civics.
Lee @26 – ohdeargod, the photos of the 8 indicted militia members are like a rogues gallery of everyone’s stereotype of congenital idiots or the criminally insane.
Or, as my son put it, “a bunch of f—–g meth heads.”
Warning: don’t click here if you’ve just eaten:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/04/20/us/20militia-cnd.html
Yeah and guess what. The nitwit militants in Michigan/Indiana that were raided by the FBI have asked for…. wait for it…..
Court appointed legal representation. Someone’s government taxes are going to pay to defend the people who want to kill and maim police officers in order to cause an uprising against the government on a wide scale. Stupid much?
From the AP: “Seven of the defendants in court in Michigan asked to be represented by public defenders. The eighth had a public defender appointed in Indiana.”
Enjoy your day of peace and reflection crowwoman.
Of course the image of breaking windows was a deliberate reference to Kristallnacht and all that followed.
We all need to raise our voices against this kind of attitude and please God, I hope the powers that be, police, FBI etc. are taking these issues seriously.
I have forgotten where specifically I saw this today but there is a person arrested for making specific death threats against Obama and Cantor.
One Jewish one Black.
Why does it seem that some of the tea people and some of those who voted GOP last election feel that their freedoms have been lost? To what and to whom?
Are this pitifully ignorant people attempting to ‘do the civil rights’ protests of the 60s/70s? What don’t they really get about peaceful protest? Where is the discipline? What are future plans in the event of another civil war / revolution?
‘Flatters, you have all contributed to this discussion and I know the obvious answer to the ‘why now’ part of my feelings. But it seems so pitiful that there are too many undereducated, willfully ignorant, and sincerely unconscious citizens who are our neighbors and that they reproduce.
Lord, have mercy on us all.
31 Pat, Washington state Says:
March 29th, 2010 at 5:03 PM
“People like that guy need to be arrested. I wonder, with all that he has posted, if the FBI is already investigating him. I hope so. And he should give back his disability checks. What a hypocrit.”
Hopefully he will get an incitement conviction and go to fed prison.
Where he will still be on socialist health care, and well fare.
I think his disability claim needs to be investigated…
anyone who can run around the woods and shoot guns ain’t disabled enough for guv’mint payments…
but that’s just my opinion…
Don’t retreat…. refresh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe751kMBwms&feature=related
I am fairly clueless how it is done,but I have been kicking around this idea of starting a petition,or writing an article,or something,about the disrespect currently being promoted in this country by so many of its so called leaders,like McCain and Mrs Paylin.You know ,the one who isists on being addressed as “Governor” but who finds no fault in calling our President “Obama” . What is this doing to our country,especially the children who are learning to be disrespectful from their elders?
I just feel like Mrs Paylin would be one of those mocking and making fun of handicapped people if she did not have her son to use as a prop.She is that trashy,mean,and lowlife. I just don’t get the appeal.
I noticed on TV today that the republican defense to the vandalism, hatemongering, bad protest signs, etc is: “Well, the democrats did it to George Bush”, the idea being it’s okay to take revenge I guess. On Chris Matthews show, a woman said that the democrats pictured Bush as Hitler, so it was okay for the teaparty to do that too. Also, too, Sarah Palin is getting to be a real potty mouth. I think the latest local wrangle going on with Dan Sullivan shows yet another example of blaming it on someone else, especially any exmayor.
Please sign petition to boycott Sarah Palin’s show on the discovery channel http://www.thepetitionsite.com/21/boycott-the-discovery-channel-networks
All I Saw…
Hubster sends ^5 back atcha
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Justa’s Hubby!!!!!))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
That’s what it takes!! Good men and women refusing to tolerate bigots and haters in their midst.
MonaLisa (inCT) it’s good to refresh
Marnie here are two videos some on the last story put up one is kind of a threat to President Obam,the other to Hamas so I don’t think Cantor being jewish had anything to do with what this man is sayin.He looks like their is nothing there if you watch his eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdOfwx6I3kQ video of threats
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26fwHov35CE video threats
I think palin needs to be put in the witness protection program…so we don’t have to hear her again and for bearing false witness!!!
Why are those threatening videos still on youtube? They need to be taken down so as not to add to the incitement of violence.
Those guys from Michigan. I know it’s trivial, but what is it with the way far right? Don’t any of them have indoor plumbing or a bar of soap? Palin never washes her hair, McCain always looks like he needs his mommy to spit on her hankie and scrub his face, Bohner looks like he fell in a vat of orange Kool-aid just let it dry there, and these Michigan guys look like they live in a desert instead of a state pretty much surrounded by and dotted by lakes. All these guys need care packages of those little hotel soaps and shampoos.
From what I’ve seen, Palin did indeed donate at least some of those goodies she scrounged in Hollywood. She sure hasn’t been using any hair care products.
Or perhaps they’re just trying to conserve valuable resources. Yeah, that’s it! ;-D
As someone in Sitka added.
“Yes we care.”
Someone explain to me how an act of vandalism (and violence, IMO) could possibly be twisted into “willful, principled civil disobedience”? What crack are these people smoking??
Ha Ha, I just listened to the NPR piece regarding this vandalism and the police officers stated that whoever perpetrated this act was a rank amateur and basically botched the job as the window was not broken clear through….and it appeared that the perps even used a crowbar and did not manage to break the window completely.
I love it, Cletus and Bocephus with their big ole crowbar can’t even get it right!!!
These are the “militia” types we are supposed to be so afraid of, huh? I suspect that these doofuses are completely incapable of doing more than take out a bunch of their own thru “friendly fire”.
I’m getting a little tired of their antics and at least it seems that the FBI is as well.
It is freighting, everyone just needs to be aware of their surroundings…if it doesn’t look, or feel right don’t go there…They get off on the fear factor and intimidation..I’m sure queen esther is in hog heaven right about now…
On March 25th, a man flips the finger and then rams a car with an Obama bumper sticker and drives off. The driver and his daughter in the rammed car were shaken but not hurt. They caught the guy and charged him with several offenses:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/e/a/eades/2010/03/teabag-express-nashville-suv-d.php?ref=reccafe
A couple of days later, Palin screeches the following to the angry folks at the Tea Bagger’s rally:
“That bumper sticker that maybe you’ll see on the next Subaru driving by — an Obama bumper sticker — you should stop the driver and say, ‘So how is that hopey, changey thing working out for ya?’”
http://www.necn.com/03/27/10/Palin-to-Obama-Pel...
She obviously enjoys poking a stick into already riled up folks to make them angrier. In fact, she’s openly sanctioning and encouraging the harassment of people who don’t follow her ideology! Her immaturity and vindictiveness are unbelievable. How did this miserable excuse of a human being ever achieve such a high public profile?
Let me begin with this…
““`
Amendment I [to our Bill of Rights]
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights
““`
I do not, and cannot, agree with –nor condone– the idea of charging (and/or muzzling/silencing/’putting away’) Vanderboegh –or any *other* person– JUST BECAUSE his speech, his voice [what he says], is so incredibly abhorant to me/us.
If, at some point, a *direct* connection is made between what *he* has written on his website, in pamphlets, in papers, and/or has said [verbatim, like with video proof...not heresay] AND any subsequent actions his ‘followers’ and/or those who’ve been ‘moved’ by him, have taken, then, yes!, throw the book at him! And the kitchen sink!
*Until* then, to my way of thinking, he is exercising *his* guaranteed Freedom of Speech; nothing more and nothing less. Ahhh, that’s the bugaboo.
I believe the “speech” part of our First Amendment is the one upon which *all* of our other Freedoms hinge. To my way of thinking, “speech” would be the freedom, guaranteed!, to voice opinions and/or views (orally, in writing, or via a medium like music, art, sculpture) — be those views and/or opinions “for” OR “against”. Without our guaranteed Freedom of Speech, none of the rest of them [our Freedoms], to my mind, are worth a tinker’s damn…to ANY citizen.
I might disagree with *what* he is saying, [and I assuredly do...with my entire being, I do!] but I disagree even more with the call(s) to deny him that right on the ‘grounds’ that/because *what* he says, is so damned ugly. Even though the unmitigated ugly brought about broken glass, glass can be replaced. Replacing our Freedoms — Freedoms for EACH and ALL of us? Freedoms guaranteed, by *law*, for EACH and ALL of us? Not so much.
Just weighing in with my 2-cents… beth.
*stepping down from the soapbox now*
Is window glass as expensive as everything else in AK seems to be? That looked like a big window.
beth-
having lived through 3 very nasty periods and sets of events where freedom of speech was the backbone of the argument of those who whupped up others do violence I think there’s more to this than the mere ideal of freedom of speech…
Inciting violence is NOT an accepted expression of free speech. The Democratic chair here and the gent interviewed by the ADN are being very careful not to expand the damage done . They are both insisting there is no way, at this time, to know who did this but also asking that people ratchet the angry rhetoric down and contact them in acceptable ways if they have something to talk about.
It is not much of a leap to worry that Mike Vanderboegh’s rhetoric was seized on by someone looking for permission to act like a thug. Telling him and the twit to ratchet it all down a bunch of notches is perfectly acceptable and doesn’t infringe on their right to speak. The idea that we must all suffer in silence to protect our rights and allow some broken glass just doesn’t fly.
Nailing their sorry hineys if it turns out that they were/are actually inciting violence is a no brainer and in no way takes any freedom from any of us.
Huffpo has reported the story as well about the Anchorage Party’s window.
Yes….the GOP trolls and Palin-Bot thinkers are blaming the Democrats there as well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/29/washington-watchdog-veter_n_517096.html
As someone said..don’t remember who…There are two freedoms: The freedom to do what you “Like” and the freedom to do what is “Right”. The quality of our democracy is determined by the freedom we choose.
Alaska Pi @ 56 ~ And I agree with you. Acts of violence against another person (or a person’s ‘things’ *in lieu* of that person) are *not* acceptable.
I also firmly believe that people have the ‘duty’ to *be responsible! (damn it!)* with their speech, but I know, too, that *my* judgment of what is –and is not– ‘responsible’ might not be what someone else’s, is….nor their’s, mine. I think there’s a *huge* difference between calling for a ‘ratcheting/toning it, down’ and calling for a silencing it all together. The latter [the danger of muzzling speech we, personally, don't like] is the point I was trying to make.
I’m not suggesting anyone should ‘suffer in silence’ — far from it…but good heavens, it’s only *because* of the guarantee that *every* citizen has Freedom of Speech, that those who might *otherwise* ‘suffer in silence’ CAN speak out.
In our not-too-distant past, those who spoke out against certain policies and actions (well, ok, a whole *lot* of policies and actions) were swiftly silenced through pre-screening for admittance, through a decisive strong-arming out of the venue, and/or through pejoratives attached to them and their unpatriotic/unAmerican actions. At least, those ‘in power’ *tried* to silence the opposition; in the end, though, the guaranteed Freedom of Speech ‘won out’ and, gathering momentum, decided (overwhelmingly) to help take our country in a new direction. I’d sure hate to see it revert to a nation where mere association(s) –however nebulous– were, again, considered ‘proof’ of wrong doing and guilt.
Granted, Vanderboegh *might have been* an instigating ugly resulting in damage/destruction of property, but a call to completely silence him *for the actions* of others *without* a concrete; direct-with-no-gaps-in-the-chain; cause-ergo-effect, link between the spewer [him] and the action-takers [window breakers], is, in my book, just plain wrong. beth.
[Are we, Alaska Pi, really arguing the *same* argument...are we, when it's all boiled down, both saying the *same* thing, just with different words/POVs/takes on the issue? beth.]
beth- I mostly agree with you about the silencing part.
But I think somewhat differently about freedom of speech in this country.
Every generation must breathe life into what the freedom brings in rights and responsibilities or the whole thing becomes a dead institution.There has been no golden moment of arrival , a moment we all have obtained the ability to speak freely and openly.
There are still large numbers of our neighbors who cannot speak up, they are outshouted and overwhelmed by mobs of twits- whether the twits are plain old bullies or organized groups. For every gain we make, there are many, many more folks waiting to be heard.
Every one of us exercising the freedom of speech, has a concurrent responsibility to acknowledge it is exercised within the context of community and that it may stir action. Matter of fact , we very often hope to stir action…
Where is this Mike Vanderboegh right now?
After calling for people to run out and break glass, he’s saying it was to get attention? To point to the fact that we are at a flashpoint as regards violence in America?
I don’t call for his silence, I call foul and demand he apologize for yelling fire in a theatre.
He’s a twit. He’s a dangerous twit. I’m glad it’s only glass that got broken and I’m even hoping it was some stupenagle teenager showing off for his buddies.
I watched my father burned in effigy for standing up to a mob. He won, the mob didn’t. It could just as easily gone the other way. We must guard our freedoms carefully and that includes stopping speech which incites violence.
Beth -
While you make a principled argument you overlook two things. One is that there are certain types of speech that do not enjoy protection. One of them is incitement to violence. The other thing you overlook is whether or not all citizens are entitled to equal protection under the law. You are probably not aware of it (and I do not have the time or energy to find a link at the moment but they are easy enough to google) but a whole group of individuals who were planning to stage protests and demonstrations at the RNC in 2008 were pre-emptorily arrested and charged with a variety of crimes. This *before* they actually did anything at all. Now please, explain to us all how this is equal protection under the law?
The comparison to Krystallnacht is apt if perhaps a bit strained. The purpose of both is the same, intimidation. There is a critical difference, however, the Nazis were far smarter than your average republican. They chose to demonize a minority. While it is true that the racist undercurrent of the right wing opposition to Obama and his administration is becoming more obvious and is perhaps even being tolerated to a greater extent over time, the fact remains that those of us who are able to make the distinction between a representative democracy and an oligarchy are still in the majority.
What it all boils down to is elections. If we cannot elect the government we want then we will deserve the government we get.
On civil disobedience perhaps it would be worth while to mention H.D. Thoreau. The first principle of his version of CD was simply that you passively disobey unjust law and must therefore be willing to accept the consequences. Another excellent example is of course Ghandi.
We live in interesting times. They will probably get far worse before they get better.
I would say two things that may be hopeful. The first is that we do not have to rely on mass media for information, so long as the Internet remains relatively free, we can inform each other. The second is that we all have a shared responsibility and that is to participate in our government not only by voting but by actively trying to persuade others to vote in favor of policies and ideas that favor our own best interests and oppose those of the oligarchy. As one congressman so aptly put it recently, “the banks own the place”. It is true. But the source of all wealth is the people, only we can make anything actually happen.
beth- and yes, we are mostly arguing the same point…
My rant @ 54 aside…
You all realize, don’t you, that charging Vanderboegh, $P, Beck (or any other nutjob) with/for any thing *will* be taken by the R-wingers/Baggers/Nut Jobbers as a “See, what did we tell you! The *first* thing They do is try to silence you. That’s how the [take your pick of one or more from the following -->] socialists-communists-nazis-Maoists-fascists-Castroites-New World Order-totalitarianists, start Their take-over of ALL you hold dear.”
And, then they’ll continue with: “It’s the first step in Their taking complete control of OUR [take your pick of one or more of the following -->] country, Constitution, military, liberty, freedom, children, thoughts, health care, Religion [read: x-ian evangelical], schools, yada, yada, yada. ”
The beauty of it is, no matter *what* stone-cold, absolute, indisputable, hard evidence the FBI, Homeland Security, or *any* law enforcement agency has against whoever it is that’s being hauled in, those who’ve been reached/’touched’/'moved’ by the rantings/railings/spewing of the one the Law has a hold of, will see the ‘hauling in’ as *proof* that what nutjob/leader/charismatic personality has been saying all along is the Truth! The ‘seed’ has already taken root, that that is *exactly* what the ______s [<refer to your selection from the first grouping (of ists, izs, and ites,) above, and insert] *DO*!
Beautiful, no? Such symmetry!
Don't tell me $P, Glenn, Bill'O, et.al. don't know this…don't play almost exclusively to the gullibility of people. And don't tell me they, none of them, aren't aware of that little thing called "plausible deniability." They (have done and) continue to rant, rave, spew, roil, and incite…but *very* carefully. They never come out *directly* with what they are 'meaning' — plausible deniability is always present. But, oooops, sometimes there's a wee little hiccough; $Ps "reload" would be one.
To be sure, her well-fertilized 'seedlings' will still (and always) see her as The Second Coming, but I think a whole lot'a folks who've been on the fence about her, will begin to see her as a power-demanding/-hungry woman now 'defending' her words…with utter bs. I think most Americans, no matter their educational level, know the difference between the meaning of "reload" and the meaning of "vote"; I doubt seriously if they'll 'buy' her trying to make the one (reload), the synonym for the other (vote.)
I must say, though, listening to $Ps [ever-higher pitched...and still rising!] explication that what she *meant* by "reload" was really a call for disgruntled/unhappy (read: 'real Amurrricans’) to “go to the ballot box” –or something equally absurd– is almost music to my ears. To see and hear her ‘back-tracking’ (even ever-shrilly!) all over the airwaves, is niiiiiice. To the eye and ear, she’s flailing words about in a frantic attempt to convince everyone that something she said/promoted/spewed, something so obviously laden with overt violence and ugly, is really, gosh darnit and gee willikers, something very benign and very patriotic…Mom and apple pie, even. With bluebirds twittering in the background. But “plausible”, $P? Eh, I don’t see it; with any luck, millions of others won’t, either.
Kudos to the mainstream media for airing her ‘correction’ over and over again. I wonder: Have they *finally* figured out she is nothing but a load? And if so, can their eyes being opened to the rest of the loads-full, be far off? Gads, I hope it’s so –the sooner, the better! beth.
If authorities when notified, had given appropriate attention to the web words of, and notes by the despicable murderers, such as the Columbine high school student and the Virginia college student, those youngsters who lost their lives at the hands of those gunslingers might still be with us.
Do we never learn? Is there not reason enough to track traffic accessing Vanderboegh’s blog and keeping a close eye on any events that might be connected? Didn’t Bush/Cheney make it legal to watch/tap/listen in on anyone, very closely for any reason?
Beth – sorry. Freedom of speech only applies to citizens speaking out to the government. It does not give us the right to incite violence or hate or yell fire in a theater (the most common example but not the only one).
The First Amendment was created to preserve a citizens’ right to speak out against the federal government without the government being able to suppress or censor the individual. It was eventually (in the 1920′s) held by the Supreme Court that freedom of speech – as well as other First Amendment rights be held against the states through the 14th Amendment.
People misunderstand this right. They also think they have a right to take their cases “all the way to the Supreme Court.” Not so. Each appellate court has the right to decide whether or not to hear a case.
Not every type of speech is or should be protected. If your speech is connected to a specific act (such as the yelling fire in a crowded theater, asking for a hitman to kill someone, or demanding people hurt one another or another’s property – those are not allowed within the freedom of speech protections). Neither are words deemed to be “fighting words” or “commercial speech” protected.
Courts will presume a freedom of speech but will also draw a line against it if evidence is given and accepted to prove that the government has a strong interest in protecting the public good. No one has the right to try and overthrow the government or to incite riots that could harm others. Period.
Freedom of speech does not protect you if you are telling lies. That’s why we have slander and libel laws and penalties. What constitutes freedom of speech is always evolving, but some things are constant: such as its core being a citizen’s right to speak out against the government in a responsible way.
There are good reasons why the government will restrain itself as long as possible even when it appears that a person or a group is going too far – people need to learn tolerance, people need to learn truth in case someone or some faction in the government is lying to the people, letting people rant serves as a safety valve, and letting some groups vent their vileness or their misguided beliefs allows the government to identify and track them.
However, at some point, particularly when the “speech” is not directed at the government per se or is directed at the government only to overthrow or disrupt the government, then the individual at whom the speech is directed or the government itself is in clear danger. At that point, the government has a responsibility to exert itself against the speaker of the hate or harmful speech. Where that point is varies according to circumstances and the evolution of our society’s needs and values, but it is always there. It has to be for the sake of the citizens and the government.
It is a balancing act. At no time, however, is there a completely unfettered, unrestricted freedom of speech, even against the government.
It is our freedom of the press legal precedents that have given rise to the notion that each citizen has freedom of speech. Our founders and our courts have tried to honor that original vision while expanding it to allow individual citizens who are not part of the press to voice their concerns and dissatisfactions with the government.
None of us have the right to slander, libel or try to cause harm to one another. None of us have the right to incite to riot or revolution. It has been held again and again that to do so conflicts with the government’s duty to protect the common good.
Yeah, I was an attorney in a previous phase of my life. I also taught law. I value the freedoms we have, but I also know that if we abuse them, we can lose them. There is a tremendous need for every citizen to better understand what our freedoms and responsibilities are as you can see in the current societal atmosphere.
People need to speak about against government, but people need to understand they have a responsibility to do so in way that does not undermine that government or that could incite harm to others. Responsibility is the requisite flip side of every right.
At present, too many people are shouting out vile and potentially harmful things without taking any responsibility for doing so in a misguided and destructive manner mostly because they are angry, scared and ignorant of what they can and cannot do, what they could or could not and should or should not do to change things they disagree with and government will, at some point, have to step in and do something to help preserve the common good if individuals and groups do not self-discipline.
So, long story short, while I am a strong supporter of our rights, I do not agree with you that we have unfettered rights to say whatever we want to whomever we want whenever we want. We never have those rights and should not because we could suffer greatly as individuals and a people if we did. We would sink into anarchy and chaos. However, as long as you are speaking responsibly against governmental abuse, go to it.
It is when you or anyone else crosses that public good line that you would and should get into trouble. End of lecture. Sorry – but I truly love the law in its noblest spirit. I have little patience for those who abuse those rights because abuse triggers over-reaction and perhaps the eventual revocation of those rights.
Government really, at heart, is simply a mechanism we have all accepted as a way to help us live together as a nation, as a people. We need it as much as it needs us. Rights and responsibilities attach to both. Our Constitution and the Bill of Rights are contracts trying to delineate what those rights and responsibilities are.
@64 beth -
Of course the far right would do what you say- with the possible exception being the not-til-now-nationally known blowhard Vanderboegh.
It was done by the far left all through the turbulent 60s and 70s. And it garnered tighter support amongst the faithful every time.
And I hope you are correct about SP having to backtrack publically so often being the start of her demise as a so-called public figure because we sure as heck don’t want to have a right wing style replay of the SLA to be the shocker which wakes up a lot of fence sitters .
Alaska Pi @ 63 ~ I thought so.
back at’cha.
Krubozumo Nyankoye @ 62 ~ I’d argue the actions taken at the GOP convention were a *result of* a gross disregard for citizen’s –ALL citizen’s– rights. You have to remember, though, what we were ‘coming off of’ at that time…8 years of ‘permissions’ to gin up ‘reasons’ for all sorts of totally unsavory/illegal chit and to squash *any* opposition. Such premptive strikes as those taken in 2008 were not the first to be taken at conventions…nor, I’m a’feared, will they be the last — IF we let it happen again, that is. And, to my way of thinking, the *only* way we can do that [make sure that *IF* statement is forever null and void], is to ensure *every* voice is heard…even those with which we do not agree.
That’s not to say I’m advocating that a person should *not* be held accountable, be held responsible, for [as an example] their saying “So-and-so is a such-and-such; he ought to be tarred and feathered” and then, someone actually tarring and feathering So-and-so *as a direct result of* the ‘call.’ IF it can be shown that there is a *direct link* between the call and the action, then, yes! hold the person who suggested/instigated/called for tarring and feathering, accountable. Fully accountable.
But, if the ‘call’ to tar and feather is *coincidental* to the action, isn’t it making a leap to point to the ‘call’ as *The* instigation? If that were the case, if *any* ‘causal factor’ could be cited as *The* [prime] motivator, wouldn’t it end up that no one would be able to voice *any* opinions/views –either pro OR con– without fear of being ‘linked’ to some subsequent [negative] action?
Do you see the difference between silencing –as a blanket policy– the opposition [as in 2008] and silencing a voice with which we do not, personally, agree [i.e. a person(s) who's totally fed up with whatever it is they're fed up with]? There IS a difference between the two, I believe — that’s what I’m trying to say. I’m also saying that *just because* Mme Z. Q. Jonetrse**, at some point, said, “tar and feather” does *not* necessarily mean that if a person IS tarred and feathered, Mme Jonetrse is directly *responsible* for it…any more than AKM is directly ‘responsible’ for my ‘casting aspersions’, here, on poor Mme Jonetrse for ever having said “tar and feather” in the first place.
Am I just muddying up on the page what I’m seeing so clearly in my mind? Probably. Oy! ‘twouldn’t be the first time — nor the last, sadly…you’d think I’d learn. Alas. beth.
**[about the only un-name name I can think of -- if there is a Mme Z. Q. Jonetrse out there, my apologies for using your name...and for saying you said something that I've no idea if you've ever said or not. Or something. Also, too. b.]
Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. ”
Now is the time for all of us to speak up, in a civil manner….but we need to SPEAK UP!!!
Quiet, silence, on the sidelines is no longer an option.
Don’t watch her television show, even out of curiosity. Boycott Toyota and other sponsors, and say why.
Just like Geoffrey Dunn has had to extend his publishing deadline on his book, on the lies of Sarah Palin, I feel that the FBI and IRS have their work cut out for them. It’s going to take awhile to seal up a tight package to make something stick.
#4 @thatcrowwoman
Om Shanthi Shanthi Om
Loka Samasta Sukhino Bhavantu ~ May all beings be filled with light and peace, health and happiness.
It is good to fill one’s heart with gratitude every day. It is good to find joy and wonder in all creation. Love abounds.
@justafarmer – I ♥ your Hub! Fantastic.
I absolutely admire and love this forum and the posters. We are able to have a civil, and well-thought-out discussion on just about any topic. We rarely see that on the rightwing forums. They make arbitrary and fallacious statements with zero back-up for their statements.
I do agree with Beth that those characters know (and are ready and waiting) to shout that their rights are being infringed upon, should any of them being openly opposed, investigated, arrested, or whatever by the government. And of course, their followers will then definitely take up arms in defense of them.
I agree with so many on here that yes, there are certain rights of speech under the 1st Amendment, but one of them is to NOT stifle the free speech of others – and that is what has been happening from the right. Back at the Town Hall meetings of last year, anyone (including the elected representatives) who were in favor of HCR were shouted down, verbally (and in some cases physically) abused, and that is not a right they have. I also hope that those two at the Palin/McCain rally last weekend will take some legal action. It may not every make it to the courts, but resulting publicity of their free speech being stifled and them removed, should not be tolerated.
Then we look back at Sarah’s book signing in Wasilla and Shannyn, Gryphen, and Dennis being banned – and in a public place no less – should not have been allowed to pass unchallenged. We progressives simply don’t shout as loudly or as rudely as those regressives on the right, so we aren’t heard. I don’t think our natures are such that we can be so abrasive and *in-your-face* as most of them.
I saw that an article has been floating around the technical pages of the Washington Post for a couple of weeks, and is only now gaining publicity – Apple is no longer advertising on FOX at all, because of Beck. We need to keep the messages and petitions going to the Discovery group, although with Murdoch having a hand in it, it may be difficult to actually get it cancelled.
Off to Vanderbilt Medical Center today – could use hugs and prayers that test results will be at last quarter’s levels and that I’m stabilized for a few more months so that I only have to have a part-time caregiver for awhile longer. Golly – if I had to have this *warden* full-time, she’d probably restrict my computer time more than she does now and I surely couldn’t handle that! LOL
@GG2C ~ Sending many positive thoughts your way for a good outcome of your tests.
GG2C- hugs and best wishes…
tell your “warden” the tubes work both ways… the hugs and prayers we’re sending are the hands of the hundreds at your shoulder each day and she should be relieved we aren’t all crammed in your house with you
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Great Granny)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Be well…Stay well.
My 89-year-old dad, who escaped Germany in November 1938, has been saying for several years now that it all reminds him of the 1930s in Frankfurt. It is one thing to espouse some strongly felt political view, and entirely another to incite vandalism and worse, and to separate one’s own group from “the other”– code for political opponents, people of another religion, color, national origin, etc. Intolerant and angry behavior threatens our country and turns us toward dictatorship. We must not put up with it.
this has been and is a great thread. lots of passionate and civil conversation. this why we come here and stay around here waiting for sweet, loving words of wisdom and encouragement to stay the course… to help the sick and hungry….to nurture the younglings and succor the aged ones. this is our place to gather and regroup. you pups are the best.
“That bumper sticker that maybe you’ll see on the next Subaru driving by — an Obama bumper sticker — you should stop the driver and say, ‘So how is that hopey, changey thing working out for ya?’”
You know, even if you were to give her the benefit of the doubt and accept that she wasn’t advocating violence – what’s the best possible interpretation of this?
That she is exhorting her supporters to go out and taunt people? What kind of jerk does that? “Go make them feel bad things they hoped for aren’t working out.”
Thing is, she’s so stupid she’s out of date. Her taunt was “written” when it looked like the HCR bill was in trouble. She’s so stupid she’s still using it now, after it’s clear that HCR is a great accomplishment. Any Obama supporters so confronted would respond “Why thank you! It’s working out just great!”
g @ 80… notice too, also, she specifically named “Subaru”, because, well, you know, real Amurrrricans *only* drive US-brand, exclusively US company-owned, wholly US-made cars…and snowmobiles.
Which ties in with zrgmom @78 and the notion of “other”; a despicable, despicable ‘need’ to ‘brand’ the unknown as evil and/or bad and/or undesirable…AKA, promote and actively encourage bigotry.
I still say, though, that silencing all ‘contrary’ speech –just *because* it IS ‘contrary’– is wrong. Totally wrong. As others have pointed out in this thread (ks sunflower @ 66, most noteably) our Democracy is a Participatory form of government. It takes ALL of us, ALL citizens, to keep it going. If you drive ugly way underground, how can you keep an eye on it?** If you ‘sweep it under the rug’ and pretend ugly doesn’t exist, how can you address/counter-act it? I submit that you can’t. beth.
**[Speaking of which, I heard on NPR there is some concern that the more 'really radical' groups have quit using the intertubes as much as they once did...according to the guy speaking --and I can't remember his name-- this is making tracking the goings-on of radical-/imminent danger-type hate groups all the more difficult. ...as if the over-whelming job of keeping tabs on all the whacked-out nutjobs wasn't hard enough, already!, *without* that... b.]
{{{{GreatGranny2C}}}} – trust your testing went well! beth.
–didn’t you say you were at Campbell — were you on-post or ‘on the economy’? We were living in Stryker Village when Gander happened all those years ago/the day before yesterday… b.–
Brandenberg v. Ohio is the case that determined the limits of the first amendment in cases where someone is advocating violence. I think there could easily be a case made that Vanderbooger was making an illegal incitement to imminent lawless behavior on a national level and would thus have abandoned his first amendment protections. I suggest if you have Obama merchandise one might think about some kind of defensive capacity for one’s person, possessions and loved ones if this is the tack that a national, supposedly responsible political party is going to take. Sinclair Lewis said fascism would come to America waving the flag and hoisting the cross. It could get ugly out there.