Creepy Electronic Devices

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[Amused and Bewildered]

The other night I ran into some friends who had just come from a party and gotten some neat swag.  One of these was a new Nokia phone.  They excitedly explained that if you point the phone at something it will seek to identify the image by searching for a match on the internet.  I pointed out that if this information is correct (they hadn't tried it out yet), this would mean not only an image of a thing but also an actual person.  All of a sudden this nifty device started to sound pretty creepy.  I'm not happy about this new invention and other things like it  -- definitely one of those times when technology scares me in regard to our swiftly diminishing right to privacy.

I bet that phone will be pretty popular with the stalker community! 

[cur-mud-geon]

I suspect your 'friends', (who hadn't tried it out yet), have succeeded in perpetrating a myth.

There is a phone, that if you point it at a barcode it will respond to the barcode.

In Japan, they've had phones that they could 'wave' at a vending machine in order to buy products and the bill is networked on their phone bills.

I suspect your concerns about the purported 'powers' of this new phone are not to be much to worry about.

Technology might scare you, ......but don't be afraid of mere exaggeration and suggestion too.

[Deb the SwinePrincess]

Well, Cur-mud-geon, exaggeration and suggestion is a part of the entire raison d'être  here in the new home of the Tinfoil Hat Truth Squad.  We have taken up this stance in order to  examine, sort, understand, dismiss, embrace or some other verb any number of possibilities... with the same rigor that is encouraged elsewhere in Mudflats. We did that in the old Tinfoil Hat Truth Squad Thread and we will continue that here in the new Truth Squad Forum.

I am glad you are visiting us ... have some Kool-aid and help us examine some of this stuff, but please don't dismiss it out of hand as pure myth or urban legend or suggest that we are merely "scared" Luddites.  (we are, after all, communicating via a computer... oooh)

I do believe that some creepy electronic devices are diminishing our right to privacy which though not specified in the Constitution continues to be of great concern, particularly to those who wear their tinfoil proudly.

[cur-mud-geon]

easy deb,

.....like you said, it's a place to examine, sort, understand, dismiss, embrace or some other verb.

I took that to mean I could choose between such as understand or dismiss.

As to 'rigor', I'm not sure the rumor of untested wonders meets any standard.

Not a big deal to me, but I do know of the phones I described,

....the one described in the rumor?   No evidence for that......

[BigSlick]

I suspect your 'friends', (who hadn't tried it out yet), have succeeded in perpetrating a myth.

There is a phone, that if you point it at a barcode it will respond to the barcode.

In Japan, they've had phones that they could 'wave' at a vending machine in order to buy products and the bill is networked on their phone bills.

I suspect your concerns about the purported 'powers' of this new phone are not to be much to worry about.

Technology might scare you, ......but don't be afraid of mere exaggeration and suggestion too.

Cur, I lived in Japan from 1990 to early 2002, and post 9/11 on I have spent my time about 50% in Japan and 50% in North America.  

Japan has definitely taken personal technology to even further extremes.  Remember the Tamagochi?  Well, just at the height of their popularity in Japan, about 10 years ago, a version came out that you could program so that if you were "single and looking" it would sit in your pocket or handbag and help hook you up if you were too shy to say "hello" on your own.  If you came within 20 yards of someone else who was "single and looking" and matched your very brief profile, it would sound an alarm and an automatic data exchange would take place that you could then refer to to try to make contact on an online website.  

It was an Epic Fail however because there were immediate stalker problems and a large percentage of the guys using it were married and looking for take-out booty calls.  Even worse, a brand of criminal that is somewhat unique to Japanese society and preys on young girls made some high-profile headlines.  They would woo these girls not just looking ofr sex, but with the intent of extorting money from them by threatening to ruin their reputation at school, at work, in their neighborhood, and in their family -- simply by telling lies about their private behaviour that Westerners might find trivial but Japanese find horribly shameful.  Several girls committed suicide over this and the ensuing scandal was part of the beginning of the end of the Tamagochi's popularity in Japan.

HOWEVER, this technology was then incorporated into one of the Japanese mobile phones that came out in 1999 with the same result - stalkers and id theft.  The Koreans and the Japanese are the fastest at bringing mobile apps to the market, and the fastest to experience the problems involved with their deployment.

Several co-op (member-owned) nightclubs in Roppongi were issueing a modified cell-phone with this capability limited to elite members so that as they entered the club they could scan the number of "available" members of the proper sex/gender orientation they desired.  However, several members had their phones "borrowed" or stolen and the resulting criminal investigations led to a number of owner/members being charged with, among other things, prostitution and assault.  

One member of this club was later found to be a serial murderer (maybe you've heard of the British woman Lucy Blackmun who disappeared in Roppongi? she was one of his victims) but there was no evidence he actually owned a device, or was using this device when he was acting out his crimes.

Speaking of barcodes, one cell-phone company in Japan is considering using even more advanced RFID technology for the same purposes as those referred to above.  This will be a powerful tool with powerful potential for similar abuses.

To be truthful, it IS scary to think of what governments can do if we opt in to these technologies, but it seems that very real problems also come from nefarious individuals who find a way to exploit technological advances in order to accomplish evil at the personal level.

My next 3-month stay in Tokyo will surely bring yet another techno-surprise. I will not say technology is bad, but we need to be vigilant and aware of potential for abuses. It's very similar to the theory that "guns don't kill, people kill".  But guns don't enable us to navigate unknown streets, talk to people half-way around the world, find a recipe for tonite's dinner, or search for a doctor who knows how to cure a rare disease. These technologies do empower great accomplishments , thus I believe their roll-out is necessary and inevitable, and requires equally sophisticated safeguarding techniques.

BTW - enjoy the retina and fingerprint scans at Customs when next you travel to Tokyo!  

 

[BigSlick]

Cur, have you ever considered what facial recognition software and camera/phones might be used for?

Code:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7099

Oh, those crafty Japanese inventors!

   

[cur-mud-geon]

I neither discount the dangers inherent in technology, nor do I believe that every new invention is inherently bad or wondrously beneficial.

As far as abuse, abuse will exist whether it's technology that's being abused or language, or any of the many other things abused.

How many technological inventions were we told would be something with no redeeming value?

Was it the technology or was it who chose to abuse it, or how it was manipulated. 

We split the atom, ...it didn't have to be a bomb.

We have not the capabilities to ultimately judge whether the computer itself will one day be viewed as a good thing, or whether we will discover some evil associated with computers that no one today has even thought about.

Surely the possibility could be advanced, but that doesn't mean because I realize that possibility might exist, that I'm going to throw my computer out the window tomorrow.

I'm neither Luddite, nor am I a proponent of tech for tech's sake.

What I pointed out is that the phone described in this first post is a device without any evidence demonstrated as to it's actual existence.

Before everyone goes off with their favorite 'what if', one might want to check, both plausibility and feasibility.

Saves a lot of willy nilly wastings of energy that should probably be put to efforts addressing reality.

Reality is strange enough, as we all know, it's a lot stranger than fiction. 

Fiction has rules reality doesn't have to conform to.

I've always found it pays more dividends to be paranoid about the actual instead of worrying overly much about everything that anyone might be showing a passing interest in, or might think possible.

Even in matters absurd, order and perspective is needed to define the absurdity.

To me, endless gazing into each and every single possible fear of the future, especially before there's anything manifest to support it's probability or plausibility, seems a bit much like endlessly gazing into one's own navel.

Who was it that said, 'Gaze too long into the abyss, and the abyss stares back'?

If you remember another truth we've recently discovered, a scientific discovery every bit as wondrous as some technological achievements, we often aren't conscious of a thing's proximity, even if it's right in front of us, .....until we avert our eyes, until we 'divert our attention',

......and then, because of some as yet to be identified, not yet understood quirk of the way our brain registers awareness of it's surroundings, ...we will be enabled to 'see' what was invisible to us before, what was hiding in plain sight, even were we to be actively thinking we were looking for it.

There's plenty of mytery in this world without us having to manufacture more fictionalized versions of it.

[Amused and Bewildered]

I suspect your 'friends', (who hadn't tried it out yet), have succeeded in perpetrating a myth.

There is a phone, that if you point it at a barcode it will respond to the barcode.

In Japan, they've had phones that they could 'wave' at a vending machine in order to buy products and the bill is networked on their phone bills.

I suspect your concerns about the purported 'powers' of this new phone are not to be much to worry about.

Technology might scare you, ......but don't be afraid of mere exaggeration and suggestion too.

I don't know why you would assume that either my friends or I are perpetuating a myth or think I need some sage advice on distinguishing between truth and fiction.  It is intended to do what I described.  However, how well it works remains to be seen.

I think it's an incredible invasion of privacy to no longer have protection over your own identity just by virtue of happening to be in the same place as someone else for a fleeting moment.

[cur-mud-geon]

Do you somehow imagine that passes for civil discourse, amused?

As I said, absent the evidence to the contrary, I doubted the rumor.

Are you suggesting I have not the right to venture that opinion?

That by my making that opinion known I've breached some social barrier and now have disrespectfully besmirched your person?

I'm not sure what's worse to ponder, that you think that's true, or that is the kind of rules for society you wish to live in.

Dissent is unacceptably rude?     

It's very simple, I've not made any accusation other than to state an opinion.

My opinion was that perhaps your friends have overstated the abilities of said phone.

The 'intent' of an object is immaterial if it can't be demonstrated to be able to carry out that function.

The intent of an object doesn't determine it's existence.

It's even simpler for you to show some evidence of the existence of this phone and a credible source that demonstrates it's abilities.

Absent that evidence, I don't feel I've overstated my opinion, and I sure don't feel as though I need take back or alter any of my statements, nor am I compelled to 'walk back any or all of what I have said.

Your thoughts on what constitutes an invasion of privacy notwithstanding, until you demonstrate the item is capable of doing that which you've purported, I myself give it little validity beyond being just something to imagine.

So amused,

.....rather than getting your back up and acting as if I've not shown you some proper respect you think you're due, maybe some evidence of this phone might better serve what interests you seem to be promoting.

If it's a world you want where no one is allowed to disagree with anything you might advance without evidence of it's existence,

...don't expect everyone to follow you to wherever that world might exist.

[Snoskred]

Before everyone goes off with their favorite 'what if', one might want to check, both plausibility and feasibility.

Saves a lot of willy nilly wastings of energy that should probably be put to efforts addressing reality.

Is it really your place to decide whether people should be allowed to go "off with their favourite 'what if'"?

I keep seeing you trying to control discussions, or have people frame them in a way that is suitable to you. That isn't something you should be doing. If you have an issue with what is being posted or the way it is being discussed, I recommend you first check the forum guidelines to see if it is against the rules. If it is against the rules, then follow this how to - report a post.

Part of the point of the truth squad forum = discussing things which are what if's. If you're not ok with that, might I suggest steering well clear of this forum in future?

[Amused and Bewildered]

Do you somehow imagine that passes for civil discourse, amused?

I don't think there was anything uncivil about my response.

As I said, absent the evidence to the contrary, I doubted the rumor.

No, that's not what you said.

Are you suggesting I have not the right to venture that opinion?

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion and nothing I said implied that you weren't.  I was merely responding to what you wrote (before you edited your post).  As for this response, this will be the extent of it as the rest of what you said is completely out of context to both the discussion and my intent.

[cur-mud-geon]

Before everyone goes off with their favorite 'what if', one might want to check, both plausibility and feasibility.

Saves a lot of willy nilly wastings of energy that should probably be put to efforts addressing reality.

Is it really your place to decide whether people should be allowed to go "off with their favourite 'what if'"?

I keep seeing you trying to control discussions, or have people frame them in a way that is suitable to you. That isn't something you should be doing. If you have an issue with what is being posted or the way it is being discussed, I recommend you first check the forum guidelines to see if it is against the rules. If it is against the rules, then follow this how to - report a post.

Part of the point of the truth squad forum = discussing things which are what if's. If you're not ok with that, might I suggest steering well clear of this forum in future?

I'm really tired of you, or anyone else, attempting to put words in my mouth.

Because I offer the suggestion that one might wish to do something,   ......that sure as hell is not the same as you accusing me of trying to contol what people can, or cannot do.

[Snoskred]

This thread has been locked..

Please feel free to continue the discussion here.

http://www.themudflats.net/forum/index.php/topic,2931.0.html

[Snoskred]

We have had to make the difficult decision to place a member of the forum (cur-mud-geon) into the penalty box for an as yet undecided period of time, as this member has a consistent record of being discourteous to forum moderators, administrators and forum members on more than 3 separate occasions. It is sort of like a "time out", if that makes any sense.

The moderators have been in regular contact via Private Message with this particular member in an attempt to communicate to them that we felt some of their posts were not acceptable, but the member has chosen to ignore our warnings and continue to behave in a manner which is impolite, bullying and belittling in the guise of argumentative debate.

We are not censoring cur-mud-geon - we are simply asking cur-mud-geon to treat other forum members, moderators and administrators politely and with respect. There is no need to speak to people as people have been spoken to in this thread. It is inappropriate and goes against everything the mudflats stands for. We are hopeful that within a few days we will be able to return  cur-mud-geon to the status of a normal forum member.

If cur-mud-geon is unable to act appropriately when we allow him to return as a normal member, we will have to ban them permanently. We do not wish to do that, but if we are forced to do it, we will do it.

We have only had to place two members in the penalty box previously, and those were permanent additions. Both were trolls who were trying to disrupt the discussions here on the forums.

This is the first time we have placed someone in there hoping that we can return them to the forums at a later time. Frankly, we are baffled by the behaviour. This user has made many useful contributions to the forums. Yet they have also made the kinds of posts you see in this thread.

The forum administrators did not add "no rudeness" to the forum rules initially as it was not felt that it would be necessary. This example has shown us that unfortunately it is necessary. We will be adding a new rule -

Forum members must treat fellow members, moderators and administrators with respect and politeness. We embrace the spirit of civil disagreement. We agree to agree and to disagree - as strongly as need be - without crossing the boundaries into personal attack, rudeness or disrespect for each other.

I am hopeful everyone can understand the reasons we have had to take these steps. Civil discourse requires a civil space in which everyone feels safe to discuss things freely, without being bullied or spoken to in a disrespectful manner.

If you see any posts which concern you, we encourage all members then follow this how to - report a post.