George Tiller Killed: Abortion Doctor Shot At Church

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[Writing from Alaska]

New thread for diverse dialogue - hopefully it will have some participants from outside our primary mudflat circle -
The NO YELLING thread for Diverse Views  - read all about it - here!

[pacos_gal]

One of the doctors from Nebraska that has been working at the clinic founded by Mr. Tiller on a rotation basis, says that all of the same services will continue to be provided as of next week.  This week they will be closed to mourn Mr. Tiller. 

Code:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/69212.html

[old salt]

So here is the statement from Governor Palin today..

June 1, 2009

I feel sorrow for the Tiller family. I respect the sanctity of life and the tragedy that took place today in Kansas clearly violates respect for life. This murder also damages the positive message of life, for the unborn, and for those living. Ask yourself, ‘What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today’s event in Kansas?’ Regardless of my strong objection to Dr. Tiller’s abortion practices, violence is never an answer in advancing the pro-life message.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/sarah-palin-tiller-murder_n_209896.html

Please explain to me how someone can say they are "pro-life" but say they would sign the death penalty bill if it passed the legislature?

(Edited by Forty Watt to add link & quote box)

[ds55]

Please explain to me how someone can say they are "pro-life" but say they would sign the death penalty bill if it passed the legislature?

They think it's okay to murder a sinful criminal, but not okay to murder an innocent fetus.  So it's not exactly pro-life it's more like divine judgement.  As Dr. Hern said, they talk to God and carry guns.  They decide who lives or dies.

I'm no Bible scholar but I believe there is scripture that warns us to "judge not".  I guess the pro-lifers skipped over that verse.

[Jamie]

So here is the statement from Governor Palin today..

June 1, 2009

I feel sorrow for the Tiller family. I respect the sanctity of life and the tragedy that took place today in Kansas clearly violates respect for life. This murder also damages the positive message of life, for the unborn, and for those living. Ask yourself, ‘What will those who have not yet decided personally where they stand on this issue take away from today’s event in Kansas?’ Regardless of my strong objection to Dr. Tiller’s abortion practices, violence is never an answer in advancing the pro-life message.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/01/sarah-palin-tiller-murder_n_209896.html

Please explain to me how someone can say they are "pro-life" but say they would sign the death penalty bill if it passed the legislature?

(Edited by Forty Watt to add link & quote box)

I just hopped over to HufPo and read her statement. Is that her full statement or just part of it? If it is indeed her full statement then it is pitiable. It sounds like she is saying that this murder of this doctor is a shame for the pro-life, anti-abortion movement because it makes "pro-lifers" look bad. How about just plain and simple outrage for the murder of a fellow human being? The outrage of someone using politics or religious belief to commit murder and sanction murder?

Her statement as posted on HufPo is in bad taste and misplaced.

[Writing from Alaska]

I'm no Bible scholar but I believe there is scripture that warns us to "judge not".  I guess the pro-lifers skipped over that verse.

I am a great aficionado of the Bible - and forgiveness and nonjudgmental compassion are the overriding hallmarks of Jesus's teachings. And I do mean OVERWHELMING - if you do not forgive, you cannot be forgiven. period. If you pass judgment, you are vulnerable to being judged. Pure and simple. The difficult part is in trying NOT to be judgmental about people that seem to be - well, judgmental!! So the Christians are going to have quite the time trying to untangle this dialogue without casting stones at one another. Glass houses are going to be quite vulnerable for sometime to come.

[judi]

So many great comments here I can hardly add more

Jaime...your words are so true....the part about the coat hanger..I think I still have an old button from the day when we were fighting for the right to choose..it is just a black image of a coathanger against a white background...women who need or want and abortion and are unable to get one legally and safely will still get one...anyway they can even if it costs them their own lives

this was one issue that my mama, a strong republican by the way, would really almost jump out of her skin about...she would start yelling at the tv that men who do not have to go through this should just stay out of any discussion on this issue...makes me think she must have known friends who had those back street abortions in the days when they were the only ones you could get

oh so many doctors have been murdered over this issue...like the one a few years ago in buffalo who was killed by a shot that came through the window of his house


or the people murdered while at church UU for being liberal


I just want to ask those who are so anti choice just how much they give to help raise children...just how many children have they adopted or supported over the years..

my prayers for the tiller family....and for all families who may be targetted by these terroists

[Nebraska Mudflatter]

From yesterday's NYT's, coincidentally:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/health/02abort.html?_r=1&ref=science


All around the world, including the U.S., women do not have always the ability to make informed choices about their reproductive health, whether that be due to repressive laws, misogyny, poor education, violence . . . and it goes on and on.

The MSM refuses to present a clear view of what Dr. Tiller's clinic did, how it was a life-saving resort for women with WANTED pregnancies that could not survive. I know the husband of a couple who went there (I have not met the wife). Deeply Christian family who shared their struggles with their friends when they were told late in her pregnancy that her fetus was profoundly disabled and would not survive. My partner and I were so moved by their story, their struggle, their sharing of their story and ultimately, their contextualization of their decision within their faith.

I am not a Christian, but I have felt moved to pray these last few days. I just don't know for what.

[daMamma]

I read that story yesterday.  How sad is it that so many women live in such conditions where it is men that decide their reproductive lives?  I'm willing to bet that it is the same folks that put forth the notion that condoms are filthy and birth control causes cancer are the ones that believe that abortion should be illegal.  All sperm are sacred.  And a host of other ill conceived / ill advised / delusional notions.

Gosh some people just make me nuts.

The only people that should ever be making any kind of decisions about a woman's reproductive health should be the person that actually owns the uterus in question.  No one else.  Period.

[judi]

Saw Susan Hill, the Dir of the National Women's Health Foundation on KO last night...worth a watch...

she spoke of her good friend Dr. Tiller and the work he did...including giving late term abortions to girls aged 11 who were victims (survivors) of rape and incest...I cried...

who in their right mind would force those babies to have a baby?  especially when it was conceived under violence..

who I get most angry with though are those who are justifying the murder...not condemming it as an outrageous act of terrorism

[Lucy]

Saw Susan Hill, the Dir of the National Women's Health Foundation on KO last night...worth a watch...

she spoke of her good friend Dr. Tiller and the work he did...including giving late term abortions to girls aged 11 who were victims (survivors) of rape and incest...I cried...

  I was very moved by this, and an article which stated that most of his late-term abortions were not women who "just waited and freaked."  They were young young girls who didn't even know what was happening and/or didn't tell until very late.  or women who very much wanted the baby, but whose baby had died in utero - and they could wait another 6 weeks to give birth to a dead child (and I think this had risks to the mother), or do it now; or women who became seriously ill late in the pregnancy and their health was now at risk.  Not at all the picture painted by the pro-birth people.

 

[judi]

Oh yes Lucy, many other reasons why a woman would choose an abortion even though later in the pregnancy...

but even if the woman "freaked" I do think it must be her choice

My own daughter got pregnant at age 19....of course I talked with her about all of her options...keeping the chid, placing the child for adoption or abortion

at first she choose keeping the child...not what I would have choosen at all, but it was her choice (I would have choosen adoption)

then almost three months later she came to me crying ...she just could not do it...she wanted a late term abortion...which I strongly disagreed with....but had to support her in her decision


she had to travel to another state to have the abortion as she was too far along to have one done here (NY)

Once at the clinic though she again changed her mind and returned home pregnant. 
  I now have the most beautiful, creative, smart 7 year old granddaughter...the joy of my life

But looking back on it, even knowing how much this child means to my husband and I now....I still would support my daughter in any decision she would  make regarding her own body

[daMamma]

Many years ago, after my daughter died, I joined a support group for parents who had miscarried or had a still birth.  There were two of us that were very different from the other families there. 

In my case, my daughter was a live birth but passed away at 5 weeks old after heart surgery to correct a rare problem of transposition of the great vessels and four holes between the left and right sides.  Her pacemaker failed miserably and by morning so did she.  Irene would have been 17 this summer.

The other couple that was very different were also mourning the loss of their precious little one.  They had wanted this baby very much and had been trying for a few years.  Late in the pregnancy they had to make the heart breaking decision of carrying the child to term and watching him die within hours or terminating the pregnancy at 7 months.  The doctor offered abortion because he could not see forcing this mother to go through labor and delivery for a child she was not going to be able to keep.  Their little one had been diagnosed with having no brain at all and barely a small portion of brain stem.  There was no way this little one would survive. 

They opted for the abortion.  It broke their hearts, but I am glad that they had that option open to them.  I can only imagine how much greater their grief would have been had they not had that option available to them.

Each of us need to make our own choices. 

[CO Almost Native]

Mudpup love to you, daMamma 

I wish more hard-core "pro-lifers" (their label, not mine) would really listen to these stories; maybe their focus and rhetoric would change.

[Lucy]

Oh yes Lucy, many other reasons why a woman would choose an abortion even though later in the pregnancy...

but even if the woman "freaked" I do think it must be her choice

  You're absolutely right.  i thought about that after I left the house and I should have chosen my words more carefully.  Nobody "just" waits and freaks". There are reasons for waiting - fear, hope, ignorance of the future, betrayal that hasn't happened until late term.  Few people "wait" "just because."  the pro-birth people often portray late term abortions as those by people who were lazy or didn't care.  I was trying for a short pithy phrase - and failed miserably.    I have freaked out before (not related to pregnancy, but freaking out is freaking out).  Totally unreasonably, out-of-proportion, and hurtful to a family member.  But I didn't do it because I was lazy, stupid, uncaring, etc.  I did it because I had my own, until-then-unrecognized demons to deal with.  Few of us make it to perfect mental health.

[Lucy]

Mudpup love to you, daMamma 

I wish more hard-core "pro-lifers" (their label, not mine) would really listen to these stories; maybe their focus and rhetoric would change.

  Nah.  It feels good to think you are righteous.  It feels good to have simple and clear answers.  The stories makes the decision so much more complex.

[Sirenoftitan]

Mudpup love to you, daMamma 

I wish more hard-core "pro-lifers" (their label, not mine) would really listen to these stories; maybe their focus and rhetoric would change.

  Nah.  It feels good to think you are righteous.  It feels good to have simple and clear answers.  The stories makes the decision so much more complex.

That is so true Lucy !  Much less demanding to see the world in black and white terms rather than in shades of grey. 

  to all of you on this thread who have shared painful memories. 

[daMamma]

I am finding it difficult and hard to believe the "Right-To-Life" groups condemnation of the murder of Dr. Tiller.  For as long as I can remember I have heard nothing from that end of the spectrum exept how these doctors are baby killers and that they should be stopped by any means possible.  Of course all the rhetoric stops just shy of actually coming out and saying kill the doctor or bomb the clinic, but those that push the rhetoric know full well that is exactly what will happen. 

They know it, they hope for it, they pray for it.  It is plain to see by anyone that has actually listened to their words.

To sit back now and cry that this murder is wrong and they don't condone violence is disingenuous.  To my mind these people are just as guilty of Dr. Tiller's murder as the man who actually pulled the trigger.  One simply can not spew so much hatred, use such volatile language, incite violence and honestly be surprised by the actions of the deeply devoted to the cause, sent (in essence) to carry out the desire to "rid" the world of a particular mass murderer.

Radical Right:
Tiller's Killers

There have been "more than 6,100 acts of violence against abortion providers in the United States and Canada since 1977," and four doctors have been killed. Many of the anti-choice groups that have spent years fomenting hatred against Tiller rushed out condemnations of Roeder's actions.

Code:

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/

The only thing that really surprises me is the fact that these groups feigning surprise actually expect everyone to believe them.

more than 6,100 acts of violence.  That works out to over 190 acts of violence each year for 32 years.  Sort of stunning when you stop to think about the numbers. 

Gee golly, now aren't you just as surprised by the recent murder of a doctor as they are?  <snark>

[pacos_gal]

I will believe them when their actions and words actually are the same, which is probably never.  I agree with daMamma, they are responsible for incensing the hatreds held by many, egging them on to violence and then trying to disassociate themselves with the very act that they hoped and prayed for.  It is hypocrisy to say anything other than that this is what they all wished for. 

daMamma and all the others to whom this is a very personal issue - sending 

[ds55]

I read an online comment from a pro-lifer on the Greta Van Susteren blog which asked "Why would an abortionist go to church?", referring to the fact that Tiller was murdered in his church. 

It made me angry and I'm still angry.  It's an example of how self-righteous some pro-lifers have become.  Who are they to question another man's faith?  This is literally a holier-than-thou attitude at it's worst.

They should instead ask themselves "Why would a murderer go to church?"