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[Writing from Alaska]

Well, until we find a better place for this, here is the thread that will hopefully be the beginning of more diverse dialogue. Some of the moderators were in discussion and thought this would be a good idea. We hope others will think so, too. We were inspired by the comments of Priceless following AKM's blog on the killing of Dr. Tiller.

It is important that to stop these kinds of events in the future, we seek common ground whenever possible with people of varying viewpoints. We must NOT allow the extremists to control our discussion, dialogue and debate. Perhaps we will have to expand this thread to several topics over time, but this is a start. WELCOME

[Forty Watt]

I try to live my life as though walking along a tight-rope, constantly making small adjustments to maintain my equilibrium. Listening to and thinking about the legitimacy of the opinions, beliefs, and values of others, even if I disagree with them, is one way I seek to fend off rigidity.  Rigid tight-rope walkers can come to a sticky end. 
 
I think you can believe passionately in your own point of view while still openly engaging with alternatives. There is a distinction between passion and dogmatism.  Dogmatism is the inability to engage with ideas other than one’s own and speaks of compulsion:  I have one way of looking at this and I will listen to or engage with no other.  Even the amoeba has two choices:  Go forward or go back, eat it or don’t eat it, and it doesn’t have a brain!

I guess that means that  only when we have three or more ways of acting or perceiving and thinking about the same thing do we outsmart the brainless amoeba.  Personally, I have difficulty getting beyond amoeba status all by myself.  So I’m counting on y’all. 

[0whole1]

In regards to abortions, it would seem to me that obvious areas of detente between the pro and anti choice folks would be before there's a problem and after the birth happens -- in other words contraception and adoption/post natal care.

Is it really the case that all anti choice groups are also against contraception, or is that just a myth of the left. Pope you-know-who has come out against contraception -- but have all that movement's constituent groups?

Likewise, have all anti-choice groups also adopted (so to speak) rightwing "it's your problem now" attitudes towards post natal care for mothers who chose to have their baby? I bet the Catholic groups *don't* share that philosophy, for one.

There should be a way for folks on both sides of the issue to support either or both these things in a way that leaves their consciences clean -- ie supporting something one agrees with doesn't automatically support other things one objects to.

This is, I guess, obvious stuff. 

[Alex]

I strongly believe that we learn more from talking to people who disagree with us than we do from talking to people who agree with us.

That said, I agree with President Obama that the common ground we need to find on the abortion issue is to do whatever we can to prevent unwanted pregnancies. 

That said, I think it's important to say that no one is pro-abortion -- I don't believe anyone believes that abortion is fun or enjoyable.  It's a choice that sometimes is the best choice among a series of bad alternatives.

[CO Almost Native]

I wish all those who condemned Dr. Tiller would read some of the testimonials from his patients.  These were agonizing, life-threatening, gut-wretching decisions...and Dr. Tiller was an admired, respected physician.  I'm not yelling, but it makes me @#!!* when people label what they do not know.  It also makes me sad.

[judi]

Alex I so agree...I learned so much from those who have different views than me if they are able to express them with logic and something other than just their gut feeling to back up what they believe...

I have known several women over the years who have had abortion...not one of them was this an easy decision...it was a heart wretching choice...

it is for that reason that I support choice so much...it has to be a personal choice...how dare I make that choice for another person?

I just wonder how many unwanted pregnacies could be avoided if the time, energy and money that is put into the so called pro life movements was used to educate, inform and help BEFORE a pregnacy occurs

by the way I hate the phrase pro life.,.I am pro life...and pro choice..they are NOT opposites

[Writing from Alaska]

by the way I hate the phrase pro life.,.I am pro life...and pro choice..they are NOT opposites

Amen, sister! 

[InJuneau]

Those people are pro-birth, and for most of them, that's where their level of concern ends.

[Writing from Alaska]

I fear we missed connecting with the Mudflats visitors who commented on AKM's blog on the murder of Dr. Tiller  - sigh. Maybe we can also make this a spot to consider how we can relate to people who are not already in our 'camp' and search for examples of such. I say - DOWN WITH POLARIZATION  - oh, sorry, is that yelling - !?!

[greatgrammy1]

If only we could all agree to disagree and let it go. What a wonderful world we would have. There would be no more wars and no more killing of human beings to please our own beliefs. This BS of pro-life is so silly. Life refers to all living things including plants and animals, not just humans. To kill because we want to is wrong unless it is for necessity like eating or protecting ourselves.  The ones that call themselves pro-lifers are really anti-choice, not pro-life. To be pro-life, they would have to give up eating and would all condemn the death policy for criminals.

[Julia O]

Is it really the case that all anti choice groups are also against contraception, or is that just a myth of the left. Pope you-know-who has come out against contraception -- but have all that movement's constituent groups?

Likewise, have all anti-choice groups also adopted (so to speak) rightwing "it's your problem now" attitudes towards post natal care for mothers who chose to have their baby? I bet the Catholic groups *don't* share that philosophy, for one.

My understanding is that while the Catholic church does not approve of contraception, the protestant side of things does not have much of a problem with it, although there are some on the fringe (like the Quiverful movement) that do.  Even some protestants find oral contraceptives to be problematic, though, because they consider them to be "abortificiants".

When I was a young bride in a new state/city, I was befriended by a neighbor in our apartment complex who was Catholic and very involved in the "pro-life movement".  She volunteered a lot of hours at a "pregnancy distress center" and she invited me numerous times to go there with her.  I had been raised in the evangelical Christian tradition and considered myself, at least nominally, pro-life as well.  However, I was also rather acutely aware that I had never walked even an inch in the shoes of anyone facing a difficult or unwanted pregnancy, so was vaguely uncomfortable with the whole thing.  However, as time went by and I found time between college classes and my part-time job, I agreed to go with her.

The ladies I met there were all very nice and sweet.   They did seem truly concerned about the young women who came to see them.  However, the first thing that made me uncomfortable was the lack of clarity in their advertising.  They advertised "abortion help" and "free pregnancy tests".  When a woman seeking help entered the center, she was first asked to give a urine sample.  She was told that she should watch a short video in a small room while the sample was tested to see if she was pregnant.  The video was a graphic depiction of abortion at various stages of pregnancy.  The woman was not advised of this ahead of time, nor asked if she wanted to watch a video about abortion; that's just where the women were led with smile, told to wait and "watch this video while we do your pregnancy test".

So the pregnancy test was conducted and the woman retrieved from the room after about 30 minutes of video watching.  If she was pregnant, she was asked about her intentions with regard to the pregnancy.  If she was planning on keeping the baby, fine - then she was led to the "maternity closet" and the "layette room" where she could choose a couple of outfits from each.  She was advised about programs like WIC, etc. 

If she was not sure about what she wanted to do, then there was a huge push for carrying to term and giving the baby up for adoption.  Getting a woman to agree to give her baby up for adoption was considered the real goal.  If she said she planned to seek an abortion, then the full-press campaign to get her to change her mind began.

I think adoption is wonderful, by the way.  My issue with this center is that I felt like it was highly deceptive, kind of with "the end justifies the means" ruling the day.  There was no "abortion help" unless you count "helping" someone to decide something other than abortion to be helpful.  If a woman was determined to have an abortion, she was not referred to another agency or a physician or anything of the sort. 

I never went back and the whole thing put a real strain on my friendship with my neighbor.  She could not understand how, if I was "pro-life", I could not see the wonderful work the "distress center" was doing.  I did find some aspects of it to be helpful to women, but because the very premise of the whole thing was falsely advertised, I just couldn't square it with "the right thing". 

I still feel this way, now 27 years later.  I feel like I am both pro-life and pro-choice, and I feel that most people I know are.  I would prefer a woman to carry her baby to term, but unless someone specifically asked me what I thought they should do, I would never presume that I knew more about a woman's life or challenges or situation than she did, so ultimately, I guess I just don't think it is my business to tell someone what they should do. 

Having said that, my husband, during the early part of our marriage before the children came along, had two different young women stay with us because they had no place to stay while they were pregnant.  Both had already decided to carry their pregnancies to term, and since we had the room, we offered them shelter and care until they could decide what to do next.  One of the girls went the adoption route, and the other girl had her baby and was later able to reconcile with her family and finish school, etc.

The fact that I am considered a heretic by many of my Christian acquaintances, because of my refusal to be "pro-life at any cost, by any means" is a little ridiculous to me.  I have had people start preaching to me and one actually wrote me an email during the Obama campaign, stating that I was siding with a "baby killer".  When I wrote back and asked how many women in distress this person had ever opened their home to, I didn't hear anything more.

[Writing from Alaska]

Thank you, Julia, for sharing your story. In the true spirit of the diverse viewpoint discussion thread.

[pacos_gal]

Open discussion with a variety of viewpoints is essential to understanding each other.   I think this is a wonderful area to add to the mudflats forum.  Thanks gang.