Don't ask Don't tell

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[old salt]

So Admiral Mullens today said that the present policy of Gays serving in the military but hiding the fact that they are gay should be changed!  In doing so, Senator flip flop McCain blew a gasket.  It was FUN to watch!   I have a unique prospective on Senator McCain that is kinda funny.  I was stationed at Whiting Field, Milton Florida in 1958 when John McCain was going through the flight program and I was one of his many instructors.  Another one of his instructors, one of the most gung-ho sailors I ever met, was...GAY!  Of course in those days, those of us who knew, had to keep it deep dark secret.  My point is, there have always been gays in the military and it's an absolute shame that they have to hide in the background and are subject to dismissal at any time someone happens to out them.  According to DOD over 13,500 people have been dismissed from the military since 1993 for being gay.  The majority of those dismissed have been women.

[Lani]

I loved watching ol'McCranky blow a gasket.  He said during the campaign that if the generals supported getting rid of DADT, he would follow there advice.  Maybe he's having a memory lapse?  (More likely, yet another ethics lapse.)

[0whole1]

I loved watching ol'McCranky blow a gasket.  He said during the campaign that if the generals supported getting rid of DADT, he would follow there advice.  Maybe he's having a memory lapse?  (More likely, yet another ethics lapse.)

I think his mental conversation goes something like, "How'n the h*ll am I supposed to win that d*mn Arizona primary if I gotta vote for gay rights?!? First I get stuck with the nutjob, and now this -- kee-rist, can't a brother get a break?"

[Sirenoftitan]

When the UK took the step of allowing gay men and women to serve openly in the armed forces 10 years ago, public opinion was in favour but the armed forces themselves were not.  The situation is very similar in the US today.
<snip>
"There was this expectation that there would be problems, but it just didn't happen. People just got on with their work," said Dave Small, who was in the Royal Navy at the time, but now works for the Stonewall Diversity Champions Programme helping the three armed services to adopt best practice in the area of sexual diversity.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8493888.stm

[judi]

I just signed the petition from Human rights

I have a friend who is a lesbian..she was sexually assaulted while in the military...partly she thinks because she is gay...she suffers from PTS from this incident to this day..we may never know just how many lives this horrible policy has affected and in how many tragic ways

Old Salt...thanks for that post....YES they always have been in the military, and in the schools, and in our churches, and in our ptas, etc...and just who cares anyway

[paul68]

I'm very much of the position, that how you are treated should be based in large part upon how you present yourself.
If you come up to me with gold teeth, pants to your ankles, and reeking of pot, guess what? I'm going to take stock of the statement you are making with your self presentation, and treat you accordingly.


When it comes to homosexuals, I am of the same mind. I do not care about your sexual orientation. Just as I do not go out of my way to make clear mine, neither should they. I don't personally agree with homosexuality, but I can accept it just fine. My favorite sister is gay, and it has no bearing whatsoever on my opinion of her. It helps that she doesnt make being gay her personal statement of self to society, whether they want to know about it or not.

Thus, it boils down to this for me. Act like a human being appreciative of character and self respect, and I'll treat you like one.



Dont ask dont tell? How about, don' stick it in my face, and I wont say anything about it.

[daMamma]

Pick a species, any species.  You will find those that are attracted to their own gender.  It has been thus since time began.  Humans are supposed to be the most intelligent and enlightened and evolved of all the many different species.  Why humans refuse to act like it, I can't fathom.



<fixed punctuation>

[Forty Watt]

I do understand the difference between someone making an announcement about their sexual orientation, in whatever way, and keeping it *hidden.*  Most straight people present themselves as straight countless times a day.

An interesting exercise is to try to go through an entire day with giving any clues, either spoken or in terms of patterns of behavior, from which another might make assumptions about one's sexuality. Or, if one is straight, without saying anything that carries within it an assumption that being straight is the norm from which ever other sort of sexual practice (for the want of a better expression) should be judged.

It's not easy. 

[futurexpat?]

I think many people think you are either gay or you are straight. In reality, I think there is probably a wide spectrum of attractions. Nothing in the world is all black and white; I have never thought this is either. What matters to me is not where on the spectrum you are, but how you are as an individual.

[paul68]

Forty, I'm talking about the rainbow stickers, the men wearing lipstick etc etc  and the deliberate exaggerations of traits normally associated with the opposite gender. These are deliberate attempts to draw attention to their sexual orientation and themselves, and are often disruptive, distracting, and yes, sometimes offensive. I am willing to bet, most of us have met plenty of homosexuals, and never knew. Why?

[Sister Artemis]

Forty, I'm talking about the rainbow stickers, the men wearing lipstick etc etc  and the deliberate exaggerations of traits normally associated with the opposite gender. These are deliberate attempts to draw attention to their sexual orientation and themselves, and are often disruptive, distracting, and yes, sometimes offensive. I am willing to bet, most of us have met plenty of homosexuals, and never knew. Why?

Speaking as a lesbian who very few people would ever identify as such (that is, I "pass" for straight without even trying), I think you are missing the boat here. 

When we sport a rainbow sticker, it's because we are proud and want to connect with other gay people and/or gay-friendly straight people.  Think of it as being much like someone who wears religious jewelry, or sports an Obama sticker on their car, or always dresses in their favorite sports team's gear.

When a guy wears lipstick (or a woman dresses in a suit and tie) it's because (and I can't speak to this one personally) they really feel like playing with that style - at least for that moment in time, it suits them, it delights them, and they feel good doing it.

When you speak of people borrowing style and behaviors normally associated with the opposite gender, please remember where those associations come from.  They come from society, and not nature, most of the time.  I think we forget that straight people choose these things unconsciously - in making a choice to go along with wearing dresses and makeup, or acting "like a dude," we go along with what the world around us expects us to do.  And mostly, for most people, the fit is reasonably comfortable.  Where it doesn't fit, it behooves all of us regardless of gender or sexual orientation to check what we're doing and ask, is this really me?  Would I really rather be more flamboyant, or more flannel-and-denim, than what people expect of me?

My point? When folks wear a style, or act in ways that many of us associate specifically with the "other" gender, the vast majority of the time they are NOT doing it to get a rise out of other people, they're doing it for themselves.  Undoubtedly there are those who want to "put it in our faces" just as there are political people and religious people who want to do the same.  But for most of us? we're just living life, and where it's at odds with the expectations around us, sometimes we go ahead and buck the trend, not to make a point, but to enjoy our lives to the fullest.

Myself, I'll probably be wearing dresses and long hair till I die, never touch a drop of make up, and stock up on power tools with pride.  Everyone is their own odd mix of things we associate with men or women, and as I said, it behooves all of us to seek out the right mix for us.

[daMamma]

I agree whole heartedly with Sister A.  We dress and act as we do because that is our comfort zone and who we are on the inside.

Growing up I attended a number of junior and senior high schools and was constantly having to defend my sexuality.  Having to explain over and over again that I am indeed straight was neither amusing or comfortable.

I am a very tiny woman, about the size of your average 9 year old.  4'8 and back then 78 lbs.  I wore a size 10 from the children's department.  Back then clothes for 9 year olds looked like 9 year olds.  This is not fun for any teen aged girl.  Ruffles and the latest Disney princess on most everything.  Eww! 

When I developed a woman's figure, as happens with teen aged girls, nothing fit at all!  Everything was too tight across the shoulders and bust.  If I could find something to accommodate the bust the shoulders and sleeves were too long.  Everything looked ridiculous and nothing looked my age.  It was ghastly.

What did fit were boys clothes.  Flannel shirts and T's.  Jeans, and boy's sneakers (the only kind that came with an arch back then) and of course those white gym sox with the stripes at the top.  As much as I would have liked to dress up in girlish fashions, I found boys clothes not only fit comfortably but serviceable as well.  Being somewhat shy, a loner and wanderer of woods and fields.  Boys clothes became a comfort zone I enjoyed, still like it to a point.

I was well into my 20s before I found women's clothing in my size!  Woo Hoo!  Okay, so I still have to cut about 6 inches off the length of just about everything, but it fits where it should fit my figure.  (expensive too, because only specialty shops carry sizes 0, 1 & 2)  I was into my 30s before I found a place that makes shoes in my size too, also expensive, but they are grown up shoes!  (I wear size 3 1/2)

[Lani]

I listened to some of the cspan callers very early this morning.  Those in the military who supported keeping DADT were very concerned about sleeping in a foxhole - I kid you not - with a gay soldier.  Like they are in a foxhole, in a war situation, and the first thing on the gay soldier's mind would be to hassle his fellow soldier for sex?  Huh?  Like the straight soldier's first idea in a foxhole would be to have sex with a female soldier near him while the bombs and bullets are flying?  I found it very telling about the callers - more so than their overtly spoken concerns.

All though change is hard, it is happening, and nothing will stop it.  I see it play out in home this week.  Our older houseguest is very uncomfortable with the entire discussion.  My 19yo had a close friend from nursery school through early primary grades whose mom was in a committed relationship with another woman.  Never occured to him that it was an unholy horror, and he was shocked as a teen, now living in the US, to hear so many people rant about same sex relationships. 

[old salt]

I heard from one of my Navy buddies today who was also at Whiting Field the same time as Senator McCranky .  We had a good laugh over his grumpy hypocrisy.

[0whole1]

My 19yo had a close friend from nursery school through early primary grades whose mom was in a committed relationship with another woman.  Never occured to him that it was an unholy horror, and he was shocked as a teen, now living in the US, to hear so many people rant about same sex relationships. 

That's the the root of all the GOP shenanigans, I think -- they can see that they can no longer count on their kids thinking what they themselves think, and it makes them cuckoo.

[Alex]

...for most of us? we're just living life, and where it's at odds with the expectations around us, sometimes we go ahead and buck the trend, not to make a point, but to enjoy our lives to the fullest...

Everyone is their own odd mix of things we associate with men or women, and as I said, it behooves all of us to seek out the right mix for us.

Amen.

(And that applies to lots and lots of aspects of life.)

[paul68]

Forty, I'm talking about the rainbow stickers, the men wearing lipstick etc etc  and the deliberate exaggerations of traits normally associated with the opposite gender. These are deliberate attempts to draw attention to their sexual orientation and themselves, and are often disruptive, distracting, and yes, sometimes offensive. I am willing to bet, most of us have met plenty of homosexuals, and never knew. Why?

Speaking as a lesbian who very few people would ever identify as such (that is, I "pass" for straight without even trying), I think you are missing the boat here.  

When we sport a rainbow sticker, it's because we are proud and want to connect with other gay people and/or gay-friendly straight people.  Think of it as being much like someone who wears religious jewelry, or sports an Obama sticker on their car, or always dresses in their favorite sports team's gear.

When a guy wears lipstick (or a woman dresses in a suit and tie) it's because (and I can't speak to this one personally) they really feel like playing with that style - at least for that moment in time, it suits them, it delights them, and they feel good doing it.

When you speak of people borrowing style and behaviors normally associated with the opposite gender, please remember where those associations come from.  They come from society, and not nature, most of the time.  I think we forget that straight people choose these things unconsciously - in making a choice to go along with wearing dresses and makeup, or acting "like a dude," we go along with what the world around us expects us to do.  And mostly, for most people, the fit is reasonably comfortable.  Where it doesn't fit, it behooves all of us regardless of gender or sexual orientation to check what we're doing and ask, is this really me?  Would I really rather be more flamboyant, or more flannel-and-denim, than what people expect of me?

My point? When folks wear a style, or act in ways that many of us associate specifically with the "other" gender, the vast majority of the time they are NOT doing it to get a rise out of other people, they're doing it for themselves.  Undoubtedly there are those who want to "put it in our faces" just as there are political people and religious people who want to do the same.  But for most of us? we're just living life, and where it's at odds with the expectations around us, sometimes we go ahead and buck the trend, not to make a point, but to enjoy our lives to the fullest.

Myself, I'll probably be wearing dresses and long hair till I die, never touch a drop of make up, and stock up on power tools with pride.  Everyone is their own odd mix of things we associate with men or women, and as I said, it behooves all of us to seek out the right mix for us.

I have to ask, if being gay is supposed to be no big deal. If being gay is supposed to be accepted by society as just a different sexual orientation and nothing to get excited about. If being gay is just a part of normal life. Then why the need to proclaim pride in being gay? What's to be proud of? Why the need to let others know that 1. You’re gay, and 2. you take pride in it? It's just a naturally occurring sexual orientation, so what's to be proud of?

I'm straight, so where are the stickers for me to proclaim my pride at being straight? Or would that be viewed as offensive and antagonistic by the homosexual?


The analogy with political stickers, religious jewelry, or sports gear doesn't help here. The reasons these things are worn, are the same reasons I mentioned. People wear them, because they want others to know, they want others to notice. If not, then why bother? They are ways to proclaim your affiliations, your position, and your beliefs. And when you do that, you invite all the varied responses that come from making these things public.

I've seen kids catch holy heck from the traditionally religious for wearing a pentagram necklace. I've seen sports fans derided and ridiculed for wearing a jersey contrary to the popular team. Heck, they've even been physically attacked. One thing however sets these things apart. They are personal choices. You choose your favorite team; you choose your favored religion. You choose them because they stand for something that people have made the conscious decision to promote as examples of their character or beliefs.

With sexual orientation, we are supposed to be considering it a natural occurrence the individual has no control over. So why should they be proud that nature happened to orient them towards same sex attraction? It's no less ridiculous than a straight person proclaiming "I'm here and I'm straight and I'm not going away!".

Before anyone cites opposition to homosexuality as being the impetus behind the need for such proclamations of pride, I'd like to remind, that going out of your way to draw attention, deliberately engaging in the unusual behavior, invites the commentary. It invites judgment, and it incites others to a reactionary response. If it's natural, if it's nothing to get worked up about, if there is no shame, then there is no need to proclaim pride. It should not even be a consideration.


I apologize, but I have to disagree with the idea that wearing lipstick, or women dressing in traditionally male attire is just a way to please one’s self. Choice of clothes is one thing, and women, both straight and gay, have forever been wearing men’s clothes when it suits them. It's been a statement, and a simple choice of preference depending upon the circumstances that has raised some eyebrows now and then through history, caused a little ruckus at times, but in the end, amounts to nothing really. It did not take long for society to come to grips with the fact that assigning a specific style of clothing to a gender is a tad unreasonable. Nowadays, pants and business suits are entirely acceptable for women, just as it should be. However, if a woman wants to try clothes specifically made for a man, meaning off the men’s rack, she's welcome to try, but good luck getting em to look right.

With men it's a bit different. Gay or straight, it’s a bit of a stretch to think a hairy legged 200lbs man is going to pull off a miniskirt. Even gay men would laugh, and do. Men and women are built differently, and clothing often, especially in the case of women, is meant to accentuate gender.

I'm talking about a woman wearing combat boots, spiked purple hair, halter tops, jeans, studded leather belts,.......... (wait, this isn't supposed to get me excited lol) you get the idea.

Same with the men overdoing the faux femininity. Sorry guys, you're body makes testosterone, and all the bent wristing, prance in the step, painted nails, and girly speak in the world aint gonna hide it and it certainly isn’t going to make the straight see you as anything other than an annoyingly flamboyant gay.

It's obvious they are making a statement, and it's not about a style choice.

The problem is that a lot of people are going to take offense to that statement. They are not going to agree with it. Presenting it to them in such a manner, invites their response.

What would happen were I to wear a T shirt proclaiming a pride in being white? Pride in being Muslim? People would notice, and they would respond. And it certainly wouldn't be in a way that engenders a feeling of comfort or pleasure. I'd be inviting judgment and opinion both good and bad, and in society the tendency is not to take notice of the norm, but to definitely respond to the negative or unusual. Dog bites man doesn’t make the news, man bites dog does.

When it comes to the idea that behavior is a result of environment, I have to agree and disagree because behavior is not the result of any one thing. It is a product of both our environment, and our gender among other things such as experience and psychology.

You cannot realistically say a man is going to learn being gay from society, when he grows up in a straight home, is surrounded by straight friends, raised in a predominantly straight environment. It's why I disagree with those who raise hell about gays adopting.

In my points, behavior is a result of conscious decision.

To demonstrate, consider the effect of hormones on the human body. A man low on testosterone will experience a wide variety of effects. They vary depending upon the individual, but include things like passivity, unusual or overly sensitive emotionalism. Traits usually associated with women.

Women who experience high levels of male hormones, often display exaggerated aggressiveness, or subdued emotional responses. Traits usually associated with men.

The point here in these examples is this. These traits and others are stereotypical in genders, because they are in large part a product of gender. Women make estrogen, men make testosterone, and both have specific effects upon the human body that are associated with those genders, both physically and mentally.

In choosing to behave in decidedly female manners, a man is obviously going to appear unnatural, and attract attention and vice versa and that is the entire point behind it. They are not displaying the results of their environment; they are actively conflicting with it.


The upshot of all this is that it is not something the military has a lot of interest in dealing with. The military is concerned with turning out the best servicemen and woman it can. It's not interested in your sexual preferences. Not normally.

Remember that famous movie line? "You’re all equally worthless!!!" That sums it up for them. You go in, and they make you into a soldier period. Not a gay soldier. Not an African American soldier. Not a Caucasian soldier. A soldier.

BUT. When your sexual orientation represents a possibly serious obstacle or disruption to the military interests, then you can bet it's going to be a problem for them. If you are going to insist on drawing attention to yourself in ways that conflict with military interests, then there is a problem. If you are going to behave in ways that cause conflict or disruption, then they will have a problem with it.

If you want to be in the military, and you are gay, then that's great. My only suggestion is that if you are one of those homosexuals who are carrying it, to leave all the associated baggage at the recruiting desk.

[pacos_gal]

I'm only going address one aspect of the conversation and that is in regard to the military and dress appearance.  There is no freedom of expression within appearance in the military.  The uniform code is called that not only in reference to the uniform itself, but to the 'uniform' appearance of all soldiers.  When you go to basic, for a man, your head is shaved, you're issued you PT uniform and your basic uniform, boots, etc.  There are regulations regarding for instance, tattoo's (size, where allowable on body and number), body piercings, all manner of things.  Hair even after basic, will not touch your shirt collar or your ears. Women wear their hair up if it is long.  
That is why this is a non-issue within the military itself.  There is no individualism, you form a cohesive unit with your team members and there isn't any differentiating within it.

As far as personal time, you are always going to look like a solider, but are allowed to wear civilian clothing.  If it becomes a controversial subject, then you can bet the military (and I cannot remember regulations on this issue at the moment) will have new regulations regarding anything that becomes an issue for them.  The military loves their regulations.

But that guy that is in the foxhole next to you, is going to be wearing the same clothing as you, have the same weapon and being worried about getting shot the same as anyone else.  A soldier should know before he or she goes into the hole, that the person with them will cover them under fire, do their fair share of the work, be there to guard them when they sleep.  That isn't something that suddenly you start to think about when you get to the fox hole, you already know it from all the hours, days, weeks, months of training that you have gone through together.  

I don't see any problem at all with repealing don't ask don't tell from a logistical point of view.

[old salt]

When I started this thread my comments were only related to gays serving in the military.  Obviously it has taken a different twist with people such as Paul68.  He objects to gays "sticking it in our face" with their dress, mannerisms and open displays of their "gayness".  First let me say that during my 20 years of service, I have known SEVERAL gay men and women in the military and not once did I ever see them display mannerisms as you described.  That could have been for many reasons.  They may not have thought it appropriate, they may have feared being dismissed from the Navy, they may have feared being assaulted or possibly many other reasons.
So for you to insinuate that exaggerated behavior is common among homosexuals is just wrong.  A recent estimate of the gay population in the U.S., and I have no idea how this decided on, is about 10%. (A Gallup pole in 2002 published a report that said 21% of women and 25% of men had had homosexual experience).
I believe there may be another reason for the flamboyant behavior of homosexuals.  In the 40's and 50's while I was growing up in the South there was a marked change in how black people were treated.  That was not primarily due to whites changing their point of view.  It was because black people were tired of the prejudice and being treated differently than others.  By forcing white people to confront their prejudices and show them how disgusting their behavior was toward other human beings, change SLOWLY came in the civil rights movement.  Granted, prejudice is still there but we as a society have come a long way in my lifetime and I truly believe it is going to happen with the homosexual movement too.  If that takes flamboyant behavior and civil discourse...so be it.  It is long overdue and whether Paul68, or Senator McCranky like it or not it is going to happen soon in the military.

[judi]

First of all...gay men and gay women have always been in the military...and in our schools...and in our churches...ya know..everywhere..they dont always "announce" themselves ya know

the issue here to me is that NO one should be kicked out of the military
 or denied the right to teach, or denied the right to adopt or raise children, deny the right to express love and affection..etc...
only due to their sexual orientation...

Yet it happens...so people have to try to "hide" who they are, hope others dont find out...risk being 'outed',risk losing jobs, etc

This is WRONG...no other way to say it...and it needs to STOP